Transcript

A-Lab series: Lesson 4

[intro music plays underneath a student telling a story about co-publishing a book with her friend, she liked that she got to share it with other classes in the school.]

Host (Louka Parry): Hello and welcome to episode four of the A lab podcast agency is a core feature for the emerging future of learning and in this special 10 part series with global expert Charlie Leadbeater, we celebrate and explore changes emerging from the 11 meta practice projects from a diverse range of independent schools here in South Australia. You'll hear stories of practical change led by learning communities by fantastic practitioners coupled with conceptual insights that show how we might increase agency for learners and educators. Each episode orbits a core theme and builds out across these ten lessons for creating an agency enabled school by sharing the improvement journey from philosophy to practice to product. And so lesson 4 is this idea of students bringing agency to life. And so Charlie, I'd love you to anchor us in our conversation in this idea, what do we mean by students? Bring agency to life?

Charlie: Well, what I mean by students bringing agency to life is is simply something that I noticed the schools involved in this lab talking about, which was that when agency got into the hands of students. Became much more dynamic and creative I suppose, and that agency is not something you can deliver to people like pizza. It's something that they have to do themselves and they do with other people. So it's a dynamic and relational thing. And what when agency happens and it takes off, it's because the relationship between teachers and pupils but among pupils as well becomes more dynamic. So I think there are three different aspects to that that that I saw. The first was that often it gets started when teachers listen to students and listen to students telling them what's not working about the way they're learning at the moment. So students are telling us about miss potential if we can listen to them. So it's not necessarily the students who do well who. We need to listen to, but those who don't really fit with the systems that we run. They're sort of anonymous. They're bright, they're creative, they're curious, they can do lots of things, but they don't quite fit into the systems that we've designed. And so one of the stories of all paradigms. And when they shift is that it's the things that don't add up. That didn't shape that. Tell you how things might change so these students are not rebellious. They're actually really committed and interested, but they're telling me something about what we're missing. The second thing is, I think in a lot of schools there was this very strong sense that the students, when they once they got hold of the idea, were able to do more with it than the teachers often realized was possible. I remember one school telling me about a teacher who said that. When this approach to agency being introduced, he felt kind of robbed and he felt robbed of a sort of a-ha moment when he would explain something in a student would get it. Then went into a much more project based kind of approach to learning more creative, more engaged, more relational, and two weeks later came back and said I, I get it now because actually I could see that the students were able to make more of this than I realized. And it's about unlocking them as protagonists in the relationship. And so the third thing that I think schools do is that they create things language. Forms of assessments approaches to learning. Ways of doing work which sort of sit between the teacher and the student so they're not owned by either, but both can contribute to in a different kind of way, and it's those sort of almost transitional kind of objects that both the student and the teacher can contribute to and feel part of. That really makes it work. So that's what I mean by bringing it to life without the students really engaging with it. Opening out, giving it passion, energy, commitment, unfolding. What's possible. Then it can be just a sort of new way to do an old thing. It becomes just another program or another lesson or another skill to be imparted. But when it's done in that dynamic way, then it has real sort of generative potential.

Louka: I'm really taken Charlie by the reflection here. I mean the part of the story that you told. Really about the role of the educator in this you know. And and this being our 4th lesson, we've really spoken about learning on purpose, capabilities, and agency and agency's philosophy, product and practice. And so I'm curious about this idea of shifting power and that in some ways is difficult for us as educators 'cause we have to let go of a previous conception of how teaching must be. What do you think in terms of this idea of really shifting power towards students? And then they surprise us because we've actually allowed them to become creators of their own learning like what's what is the kind of what's your reflection on how that happens.

Charlie: Often teachers are quite resistant to it because the model that we have means that students in some ways can't fully be trusted or they're not sort of fully developed to take on that power, and as a result, chaos men let loose and loose structure and loose kind of sense of purpose and so on and so forth. And so it really matters how it's done and what's really important about these schools is they do it very skillfully. So it's not just about handing over choice or you know, let 1000 flowers bloom or what have you. It's done in a structured, thoughtful, careful kind of way, but it's not about the teachers retreating. It's not about them disappearing, it's not about them absenting themselves. It's about creating a structure and a framework and a language within which the students can start making their contributions and start going in different directions and start breathing new life into it. So it's about trust. And it's also about. Seeing that students, students saying that students want to use that kind of opportunity and power responsibly, that they're reflecting their committed, they wanted to do good work. And as a result, can be trusted. And when that trust builds up, then all sorts of new things become possible.

Louka: Charlie, some very vigorous nods from the three wonderful practitioners we have here in the studio with us today and so to couple some of these. These contributions with the lived experiences I'd love to invite, you know, the three practitioners here to introduce themselves and their work as we delve into this conversation further.

Aaron: My name is Aaron Beck and follow and I'm a teacher at Bethany Christian School, which is an LLC through the year 6 school in Adelaide, SA. I teach media arts. To the youth three to six and head up arrange events, coordinated school assemblies and work with students who run student LED Media team.

Louka: Great to have you here, Aaron.

Nadia: So yeah I'm Nadia. Love it. I am a school counselor and well being coordinator at University Senior College which is a senior secondary school. So 15 year olds to about 18 year olds, and they're in their school that is part of the University of Adelaide. So in there in that campus and there's about 450 / 500 students.

Louka: Thank you Nadia. Great to have you with us.

Renee: And I'm Renee. I'm the learning and teaching coach from Calvary Lutheran Primary School, which is a primary school in the southern suburbs of Adelaide. Of about 250 students.

Louka: Wonderful thank you so much for being here. So let's start with you, Renee. Take us into this journey that you've been on and and as part of that journey, the idea of students bringing that sense of agency to life.

Renee: So being part of the student agency project, there's like a three year project, but really students bringing agency to like really happened for us, probably about halfway through last year. So halfway through the project and there were probably two things that really stood out for us. So the first one was where we were about capturing the student perspectives on their understanding of agency at Calvary. What did agency mean for them and look like for them that Calvary and involve them coming up with their definition? So their definition of student agency, which was around. Independently thinking and shaping themselves through goal setting, so the focus was very much around the goal setting. The second sort of starting point was also just having a student who was struggling in his new classroom environment at the beginning of this year and him coming and speaking to me about his struggles, and it wasn't having a whinge or a gripe. It was him talking about what he needed as a learner and what he needed from his learning environment. So and it was using the language that we've been talking about, so they were the two starting points for us.

Louka: Fantastic. Give us a bit of a sense of the journey since that. Point in time and again, that aligns beautifully Charlie with what you've shared as well. When you know students are advocating for a different kind of learning. Where has that journey taken you so far now?

Renee: So we've really focused on buying developing case studies to be able to share with our staff. So the students you know come, they come to me because they see me as the person that they come and talk to about student agency. So they come to me and share things that are happening and we've developed a series of case studies with which we've then shared with staff and that has been really powerful. Them to hear what the students are saying and to the room reflect on their practice and what are they doing in their classroom environment to be able to enhance. The agency for our learners.

Louka: I love it. I love this idea of students as advocates for the learning they want. Yeah, and to your point as well, Charlie, how do we do deep listening? Should create the structures and the ability to do that and then communicate that through case studies. In this game. I love that and I thank you so much Nadia. Take us into the journey of USC University senior college. Where do you start?

Nadia: Well, the school would have thought that that we do quite agency quite well, being a part of a senior secondary part of. University set up where there is lot of choice. There's choice in timetabled choice. In spare time, there's decision making and subject areas and how the projects are done in each curriculum area. But if on reflection of the whole journey, that is very much the beginning of it is very much teacher staff education Department says, which is our board directed? So there's still a lot of direction, however. What the exciting thing is and when I ever go to these meetings I go. We have at least three meetings a week with interesting interested students on various topics. They I get so energized it it just they get energized. I get energized about where this is moving. Last year, even though we had COVID, it began with some New Year 10. Say I'm giving an example of a project where. Adelaide and Country SA was had issues around bushfires so that was the current events cause impetus for different projects and we had 80 students working out what they would do to make a difference in the people's lives who are affected by bushfires so they lead quite a range of activities that some were completed, some not. Completely covered, but for me and for the students now we have moved so much further and what really struck me about what you said Charles is. The trust and the letting go and. Just the dynamics of some groups of students who come in and out of various groups. Summer, we've got groups who are run, debating, run photography, some student voice. We have students who, because there's been issues around sexual consent, so we have had students take on that and have developed policy writing have developed guidelines of how to treat people of different gender have. I'm now creating with with me and with outside agencies, curriculum materials and activities, and that's so exciting. They're so excited and they say this is what you know. This is what excites me about coming to school and another student. With the Afghanistan crisis, we worked out how many Afghan students and they have created a project that is still going that base. They based on three goals of. Gathering funds informing others and making change so they they are continuing to do different projects that involve MP's that involve the school community and wider range. Far bigger than I would have ever committed to. I do have some staff who are worried about things like that and I think it's the letting go and. And but the the exciting thing is now there are staff who want to come in and want to be part of seeing how the process goes, and I think. What works for me with them and the groups that come in and out is the relationship building how relationships are developed within between the staff members and the students. How much active listening is involved? Yeah, and just how much how respectful those relationships are and and the commitment is amazing.

Louka: Well I just some wonderful examples there. Nadia, the idea of the student energy. I mean, imagine that an adolescent deeply excited. To be involved in that, I mean that really is what we're all here talking. Yes, thank you, Aaron. Let's hear from you as well about the journey and where you started.

Aaron: I think our journey started really with a conversation and that conversation was around an event that our school had had for a very long time, which was the end of the year concert. Over years we've developed it there. Went from being like a pre made concert to actually being or musical to being something that we created and it was very much staff driven. We came up with the content, came up with the creativity that was around that and then involved students in what we were doing. And so it was at a point where we were. I was thinking how do we improve what we are currently doing again. How do we iterate what we've been doing? And so there was a teach media arts and so I had the privilege of teaching students from years three to six. And so for all of those students who would normally be involved in this, we had this conversation and asked for feedback on what that experience was like, and then also to add to that what they would do to improve it. And so as we spoke, and gave them the opportunity, we heard lots of different things come back. Which were, you know, there were some positives, but there were also some negatives and there were the ideas that they came up with as I started to look through them, there was so much creativity there and so much variety. And it was. Instead of in my mind, it wasn't just something that would improve what we currently had. It would be something that could possibly replace it, and so following that we had a staff meeting where a number of students came and shared what they were thinking about, and our principle is really open to that happening, so that was fantastic that we could have that as a part of our staff meeting and it changed the dynamic of the room because students were sharing what they were thinking. Following that meeting, we had meetings that followed just with staff and conversations happen. We were talking about. It was very challenging to hear some of the feedback because it sort of it was confronting in a way where it said something needed to change. And as we sat there and wondered about what that could be and how we could move forward, there were some voices that were saying that it was probably premature to move in this direction. There were others that were saying we could do this, but I think that it might fail. And so I was in the meeting and and I didn't want to to try and drive it in the direction I wanted to sit back and and and and let the conversation happen because it wasn't gonna. I didn't want to be the person necessarily leading this. And so as the conversation went on and that comment was made about failing, I just recalled that we've been doing some professional development around design thinking and part of that process is prototyping things to and being willing to fail to actually innovate and to create something. And so it was at a point in the meeting where I thought now I need to say something and I said, we, we asked students moving through this process and and asked them to try things and to be willing to fail. And I said, is that something that we are willing to do ourselves and kind of left it at that? And then there are a number of voices that spoke up and at the end of that meeting it was like a tipping point. I thought I was like, I know, that students really want this to happen. This change to happen, but I feel like this could either. This is a point now where it could happen. Or it could just there be a brick wall on this thing could just stop and as it turned out, some voices spoke up and then the consensus was we'll do this and so following on from that we looked at what that would because we normally put preparation into something that we do anyway. And so we thought why don't we dedicate an afternoon a week for say like an 8 week period roughly around that number where students work on the things that they want to do, and the idea is we're not like I think students should do this because we think it's a great idea. It's actually the ideas and the groups that. Eventually became reality were from the ideas that they presented in the 1st place, their creativity, and so groups such as cooking and catering, groups of visual arts, group of fashion Designers, Group, an animal carers group and music group which included a composers, musicians, singers, songwriters and DJs. Filmmaking photography Group A dance and choreography Group A programming Group A design and building group and to top it off a group that assembled who wanted to. Take care of organizing the festival and developing a website to promote the festival and so all of these grand ideas you know they they started off as ideas, but then to see them actually become tangible and to see it happen was so exciting.

Louka: Well, that's fantastic, Aaron. I mean Chad, I wanna talk to you here. I mean we spoke already. In earlier lessons about in a student voice, student choice, student agency, ownership, authorship. Wonderful examples of students bringing this to life. What are your reflections?

Charlie: Yeah, I'm I'm free. I suppose the first is how often in these conversations there is a moment like moment that parents talked about or Noddy is talked about as well. And Renee Renee talked about with that student listing to to what they were telling, which is sort of like threshold moments. There's a sort of a door open that you can choose whether to step into it or not, and it's a little bit scary, but there's a threshold and you have to know that you're confident. In doing that and in different ways. I mean, when errands talking about using that analogy of design thinking and prototyping, iterating failure, that some incouraging to to step into. So the second thing is then I think what I've I've heard from the schools is there is. I think everyone has talked about this. There's a sort of series of steps or spectrum. You know. It's first of all is getting feedback. Then there might be providing choice. Then they might be having conversations. Then there might be you know more self directed so you know. Kind of you know, sort of expands and you don't go in one step. You know you don't go from A-Z, you go from A to B to C and it's the sort of building that up. And then then I think this really important. Third thing, this question of identity and teachers. You know this sort of sense of when we, when we say let him go. What what do we mean by letting go? And I think what we mean is letting go of an identity, because actually we're not letting go of responsibility for learning for letting go of skills or letting go of insight. We don't want teachers to just walk out of the room, we want them to be there, but to be there in a completely different kind of way. So there is some description of a different kind of professional role here. It seems to me which is deeply engaged, actively listening using professional skills to help design learning to pro prompt learning to be there in a supportive fashion. But to be there in a different way. So the letting go is not letting go of control. To some extent it is. It's letting go of a sense of identity, but this is what I do and this is how I feel in control to engaging in a different kind of way. And it's sort of building that up a bit. And so this sense of this dynamic relationship of what's possible for the students can only be made possible if the teachers want to adapt as well, and both sides are creating a new identity, and so then even the middle word come back to this thing. But in the middle, then you have to create a language. Which isn't owned entirely by the school or the teachers has to be a language that students feel that they can appropriate a news and kind, then feed into that. They're not just. Using the language in the categories that we commonly use so.

Louka: And even the the word agency, I think is a bit loaded and I think you spoke to this, Renee. You know agency to young people may not have any real meaning and so the idea of taking everybody on a journey and putting something in the middle.

Nadia: I just think of Charlie whaty you said made me think of some groups of students I work with and talking to them of models of change. How change works and understanding. That when working with others who may not be on the same journey with you, it does change doesn't happen straight away. So how can we be patient? How do we work with people who have a different understanding and different perspective than we have? So we as a group discussed OK, we're not getting the responses we want from. Our wider community just yet. What do we need to do? How do we sit back? How do we give a little bit pose different questions to allow people to to feel more comfortable of. And more trusting on the process. But you know you were. You were working in partnership with young people who are very intelligent and very creative, but together we're trying to make change and people may not necessarily be there yet there yet. So bringing them along in a respectful fashion. So often there's those intellectual conversations that are happening along the side of any agency, because frustration or whatever is just part of it, you know. Things don't always go your way.

Louka: What really? Absolutely. I think. I think that is probably something we could say definitively about the future uncertain, and it's complex. It's ambiguous. Let's let's continue on this theme, 'cause that seems to be the challenge. And Charlie, you've really grounded us in this idea of. How do we change our identity as educators and it seems to be one of the big obstacles for all of us and we have to include ourselves in this, not pointing fingers. It's it's very difficult for us to let go of who we think ourselves to be and the role that a teacher must play in. And I think what we're hearing is that students talking to teachers and being being allowed to be heard is part of that shift, because then you listen to them. But Renee and Aaron and Nadia as well. I'd love you to just identify a challenge because it's true. It doesn't always go as planned. It's scary. Trust means that maybe things won't work out the way we plan in fact, but that also the idea of productive struggle we've we've mentioned as well in the past. What's been the challenge you've encountered?

Renee: So going back to that student that I was talking about, who came and shared, he'd struggled in in as a Luna and in his new classroom environment. And once he shared it with me as well, that's great, but I'm not your classroom teacher, and I'm not going to bring around. Be able to bring that change that you need. And So what do you need to do? Any simple need to go and have a conversation with mutations that absolutely and he asked me to come? He said, can you come with me? I said, sure, and I was so excited about this. 'cause he had articulated himself as a learner and what he needed. Beautifully, it was. So exciting, so we set up this meeting and I was pumped ready to go and this is gonna be great and it didn't go that great and he was the student was providing really in in a really respectful way as well, providing really valuable feedback and being a really creative critic as well around his around the learning environment and him as a learner. But you could see how incredibly confronting it was for the teacher and he was so incredibly uncomfortable and was really brickwalling. Everything that was being said and you could see the student as well. Just deflate and. Having you know, after being really excited and being heard, he felt like he was being heard and then all of a sudden he was back to not being heard. But in that moment as well it was that realization for me that we hadn't done enough in that space of building that trust between the teachers and the students. So you know, I probably gone a little bit early with it, but that was a student enthusiasm and I wanted our students to have that experience. But I just think that that. That was quite challenging, but there was also a really big learning moment for us as a school as well.

Louka: That's that's a really compelling. Story, isn't it? Yeah, and just how important it is for all the human beings to be heard, yeah? It was really one of the foundation for parts of a functioning culture. I think. Aaron what about your challenge?

Aaron: I think… So continuing on from the story, we so we set up those groups and then we worked for eight weeks working towards what was the concert had now become a festival. And so teachers were working with students from not just from their class. They working from home with students who were. They were interest groups, but they were students from years three to six within a group. Not all working in age groups. They were working across and so that was a real challenge. And then to have an event at the end of the year where they weren't. You know where it was? Students were getting congratulated for individually for the stuff that they had created. That was a really different experience, but through that and other iterations of that festival. And that kind of work that continual, continual question of what is my role? Came up and it wasn't really. It didn't seem to get established no matter how much work we sort of went through. It sort of seemed like confusing for a lot of people. What do I? How do I actually fit in this? And I was sitting in a meeting and we were like around the table. We're just trying to work out what is the role of a teacher and I'm sitting there and I was like praying, going, God what is our role in all of this? And then this thought came to me that a teacher's role could be likened to the role of a belayer in rock climbing. And that's that's the imagery that came to me and they thought. And as you think about a belayer, player makes sure. And if you can sort of see the power levels between this and teaching, is that a player, make sure the climber is probably tide in. And they're secured before they begin their ascent. So it's not aricent, it's their ascent. During the climb the belayer yells out small hints at key moments or step by step instructions, and that's all dependent on the ability of the climber. And they usually give those instructions when the climber gets stuck to help them get unstuck. So I'm picking those moments and they have a different view, so they are able to give that kind of advice and then to help the climber from hitting the ground or coming to harm after slipping. They are there to help them. When that when that happens, there's some things that are in place to make sure that they don't get hurt in the process, and thinking back to that word, responsibility when the climbers reached their goal is a belayer is usually the person the first one to praise them and congratulate them, and then when they layer is actually a partner with the climber. So that's the relationship is actually a partnership, and who in turn can be a belay from them. So I think sometimes we think we're just the person that can support, but sometimes it's a two way St. And that relationship and then just to go on from that. There's in my research I found there's some seven key attributes that are below. Has that they're educated that they're attentive, that they're focused, they're involved, aware, organized, and they're a team player. And then the whole thing with it being a team player is that they care more about the success of the other team members than their own success. I sort of think about that, and I think if I wanna think about my own attributes as a teacher, I would love for that to be set up in May. So thinking about the challenge of what is the role teacher? That's something that we've.

Louka: Yeah, that's that's a powerful metaphor, and I don't know if you're are you a climber?

Aaron: Back in the day, back in the day, back in indoor rock climbing.

Louka: But yeah, it's such a powerful metaphor. And then, of course, how do we? How do we allow the students to be the belayer for us? I mean, that's. That's a real shifting power, and that scares me even just thinking of that conceptually. Charlie do you wanna input here? 'cause that's just some really great insight as well.

Charlie: 2 two things. Firstly, that was a brilliant metaphor. And one of the things that I think is happening with the schools is they become incredibly sort of fertile and productive in their metaphors to to shape the story of what it is and to convey it. And Beth needs command with several metaphors, but I do love that delay a metaphor. And there is something there isn't there about sort of who gets centered. Sort of decentering the teacher to some extent, but being comfortable with that and not being fragile about it. So then I was listening to Renee. I was thinking there is something about productive discomfort over there, which is when is a sense of discomfort productive? 'cause it leads to something else? And when? How do you cope with that? Distinguish it from discomfort, which is simply annoying, or frictional or or what have you? But there are points of discussion, productive discomfort, and it is that threshold moment. Do I do I take? That settles on certain. And I think there's. You know, there's that sort of honesty about the description of that conversation with that student, and that teacher that is deeply authentic and even you have to go through it. You can't just manufacture that you can't just. To create a creative kind of product or something that has to be. Going through together to get out the other side.

Louka: Charlie there seems to be this. There's been around, you know this surprising nature. Sometimes when you when you do trust. Things can surprise you because you've no longer, it's so. The expectation set is kind of blown open a bit, so Nadia, just to you. Is there a moment that surprised you and then and where do you see this work going from here?

Nadia: There's been many moments that surprise me. Recently it was. On the we had a group called Action for Afghanistan and they you know they connected with the Afghan community in South Australia and in Afghanistan, and we had one young man who I really had nothing to do with and he came. This is only a recent times and one of his projects which. Maybe five other students were involved in was in educating other other students and and staff and one activity he led. Which made lots of teachers cry. And it was so good because while they first created this program and he had exercises within it of talking to young people about specially what's happening in Afghanistan and strategic parts of it. But talking about his family as refugees. And he bought it. He explained that six family members left Afghanistan in 2000, with one little backpack and a thermas. And he asked. Many groups where we did it with about three groups of about 120 each. So his peers and adults, he asked young people and the teachers what would if you had to leave this very moment, what would you take and why? So I had teachers coming and students coming. Crying sat on my God, naughty, that was magnificent. That's the best session because it was so personable and also at the end of that. The students who were part of that group had already created with local MP's petitions and letters. So they were all ready to have them sign. I think that was probably the most powerful thing of recent times for the school community, but also for that young person. Uhm? Morteza is his name. Great name Morteza he he said in his reflection for me he and for this group he said that the opportunity to be involved in something that had was so. Person centered, made his time at the school. Well, that was the most critical thing of all his education. Having his voice and his family voice heard, so that was probably for and for staff. That was the way it got, Oh my God, these kids can really do it. It's it's. I mean I can feel goosebumps just thinking about that moment.

Louka: You know, like we've all got, we all have those moments. Yeah, it's tingling tingling because it's it's something about humanizing the system. Yeah, and I think all the examples we're hearing here is about how do we. Do that and that means elevating the role of a student so that they that we give them a platform to actually not just be heard, but to be able to choose and then to be able to co-author with us.

Nadia: And and I think it's because then they are not just exercises that they're doing this, the the projects at some of the young people are doing currently have so much more meaning to them they're not prescribed by me. They're not dictated by the teachers, the the information that. They're doing now on respect and sexual education and consent. And gender is so powerful for them that they can see that they're making a change in lots of people's lives. And that's why they're so committed. Yeah, so it's great.

Louka: Fantastic, yeah, you don't need to wave a carrot, no, no, this is no. This is kind of the deep, both inner and external. Kind of convergence. Charlie that that we've spoken about on. In previous lessons I might go to you, Renee. Similarly, what surprised you in this journey so far?

Renee: I think I think for our students had their our hard moment when they were able to create their own definition about what agency was, and then, you know, use that to drive forward. And then I think what surprised me was our staff had the a-ha moment was viewing the case studies of students actually living out that definition and I think our staff then had the amoment of what student agency was because it was contextualized. It was what our students were saying it was. It wasn't a definition or, you know, research. Then it was what? My students were saying, and so it appeared to make more sense, and so it was really. It was a staff meeting that I wasn't necessarily looking forward to, 'cause I didn't know how it was going to go. But it was really invigorating and it was really exciting to see the staff have that moment. And then the conversations that came out of that and the thinking about where to next. And it was like finally, we're getting there. We're actually, you know. And it was our students that have created that moment for our staff.

Louka: Wonderful Aaron reflection from you.

Aaron: So I think something that surprised me. There's been many surprises and for me that they're like defining moments, things that I just look back on and and they just give such joy. But we had to use six boy during that time. We were preparing for the festival and I had the privilege of helping to work with all those who are interested in photography. And there's a boy and he'd he'd gone through school. He was in year six at this point and I think he had many challenges and many difficulties. And so going through school, I imagine for him he would have always gone through from the start to where he was just seeing other people succeed and maybe have mountain top experiences. And he probably had a lot of assessments and tests which just showed. The deficiencies that he had. And so he chose to do photography, and he had a real love for nature. And so he put those two things together, and he borrowed a camera from me and he went out just on our property at our school and took a range of photos and came back, and I was immediately blown away. Bother the quality of voters, but also what he'd chosen to capture and maybe things that a lot of people may just walk past and not even notice be managed to create these beautiful images. And so I gave him some feedback too. 'cause one of the images was great, but I thought it could be even better and so I gave him some feedback and he took that feedback. Went out and came back and the photo that he produced. Probably one of my favorite pictures that's hanging up still at our school to this day and so we had a festival that followed on from all of that preparation we had parents. We had, yeah just people from the community come through and and see the work and and he was able to stand next to his work. And people would come up and just tell him how much they loved it. Yeah, it is reflection. He just talked, you know had to help him to write a teacher. Staff member had to help him to write and describe what the titles of his pictures were to help him with writing his name and then for his reflection we had to sit down and interview him and then take what he said and then put it into a form that people could read and hear what he was saying. But the thing that came out was this joy that came from people coming up and seeing his work and experiencing it. And I think perhaps for him. It was the first time that he'd had a mountain top experience in his whole schooling and and it was just. It was just so wonderful to see that and people came through and. And it's not just like they thought, oh. He's a child that's maybe struggled, but they've created this beautiful work as people came through and they saw his work and they said, can we buy his work? And so I had to replace a number of pictures 'cause people purchase them, you know, and so amongst other stories that came from that. That was just one that just really stood out.

Louka: Guys. That's inspiring stuff. Not yet, I'm just gonna ask you a final as we go round with a final question to each of you. What advice would you give? To a school and educator, a team, a community that wants to undertake this work.

Nadia: Time is important, don't rush it. And. But in saying that jump, jump in your students. Have more. Ability more creative thinking than you probably could ever imagine. So give him a go. Fantastic thank you very much. Great Renee. What about a piece of advice that you would give from this journey so far? Well, I think it's around getting these students involved as early as you can and using their understandings and that's all. Pause, OK, it's OK 'cause the marks are so sensitive. Thank you, Nadia. Thank you so much, Nadia. Renee. Let's go to you to tell us about what piece of advice would you like to share.

Renee: I think it's around getting students involved as early as you can and using their understanding to to drive what you're doing, but also then to get their feedback around what you're doing as you're implementing this idea of student agency, get their feedback and use that to drive the work.

Aaron: Testing so I think what I've learned through all of this is that experience is actually a great teacher. And I think just as others have said, that to jump in to try it out. I'd invite you to test it out. Sometimes we wait to find, hear people telling us enough stories to say this is this works. You should do it and only move when that's the case, but I think just to be brave and courageous and to see for yourself what emerges.

Louka: How about you, Charlie? I'm pretty inspired sitting here. What do you want to share with us from some of these narratives that we've just heard?

Charlie: Well, I think that. Quite a lot of what we've talked about is really about. Stepping into new spaces. We're not sure what's gonna happen and which is both scary and full of tension, and so these are sort of spaces. I would say structured uncertainty so when Aaron's talking about a teacher as a ballet and that sort of structured uncertainty, if there's some safety, there's some procedures. There's some skills, but it's also a rock face, and you know can go in different kinds of ways, and so it's about stepping in, but not doing it. Stupidly, and learning as you're doing them. And as we know says about. Seeing that the the young people are there with you, they're helping their part of it there. It's that relationship that will get you through. And what will come out of that if you do that properly and well, it's much, much stronger relationships and much greater capacity to then take on other things. And to take another step in to open another door. Whereas if you don't take that step, you'll never open another door because you'll be stuck in a world of control and the world of. You know one person knowing and the other not knowing and so on and so forth. So what's really impressed me about the schools is their willingness to take and to, you know, to. Help one another teachers to help students, students to help teachers take that step and really not be scared.

Louka: Oh, it's just that's wonder about this piece on trust as well, Charlie. Trust must come from some sort of uncertainty.

Charles: It comes from coping with uncertainty. Routine does not generate trust. Knowing your timetable doesn't generate trust. Trust comes from when there's a risk that you might be let down. And actually, you're not. Trust is generating whenever there's a possibility that your trust might be betrayed, and that's not betrayed. And actually something bigger and greater happens as a result of that. So that's that's, I think, where you create these relationships and trust rather than control transmission instruction and delivery. That you have to put something. You have to put something sort of at stake I suppose, and if you do that in the right way, you're rewarded hugely. It seems to me as the lesson abuse schools. Louka: Goodness me fantastic conversation. Enormous thank you to the fantastic three practitioners that joined us for this conversation today. Thank you very much Aaron. Thank you, Nadia, thank you Renee. And there's always Charlie. Thank you for your insights as well. This has been lesson 4 of this podcast series students bringing agency to life. Thank you so much for listening and we hope you join us next time.

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