A-Lab Series: Lesson Three - Agency as Philosophy, Product and Practice
How do we be more on purpose, and less on point and create learning with rigour but not rigidity? How do we elevate voice, choice and initiative knowing that as we do so we create more freedom and more responsibility?
In this third episode of our 10-part special series on Learner Agency we discuss agency as if it were a philosophy, a product, and a practice. This is the third lesson for agency shared by global education expert Charlie LeadBeater in conversation with educators from three different schools across South Australia. In our conversation we blend the conceptual with the concrete, exploring philosophy, practice and product and hear how schools have journeyed towards activating agency in their community.
Three brilliant teachers join us for our conversation today: Renee Wehner from Calvary Lutheran Primary School, Alice Speirs from Walford Anglican School for Girls, and Tim Agnew from University Senior College. We discuss what purposeful learning looks like and how identity meets intent - when who we are powerfully intersects with what we want to achieve. As our educator colleagues share their learning journeys, both inner and outer, we discuss the connection between values and achievement, how they endure and evolve, and how if we connect purpose, commitment, and reflection we can create high agency learning experiences that lead to increased growth and mastery.
This series is a special collaboration between The Learning Future and AISSA: The Association of Independent Schools of South Australia. Each of these ten podcast episode correspond to one of 10 lessons on Learning Agency from the soon to be published Centre for Strategic Education Paper authored by Charlie LeadBeater. We hope you enjoy our second conversation, agency as philosophy, product, and practice.
See more: https://www.ais.sa.edu.au/events/student-agency-lab-three-year-project/
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00:00:22:14 - 00:00:50:21
Unknown
We created an art club when our teacher read us a book called What do You Do with an Idea? It made us feel really nice about helping other people, about some younger children who might not like, like play outside and come in the apartment until really nice about all the people around. One of the highlights from our club is we winning a competition and it was like coming second and another one from and from winning that competition.
00:00:51:03 - 00:01:16:17
Unknown
We won a 100% recycled Finch with the school. Welcome to this special series on an agency. A defining feature in the emerging future of schools. I'm your host, Luke Perry. And in this collaboration between the Learning Future and the Association of Independent Schools of South Australia, we over ten lessons shared by global education expert Charlie Leadbeater. This is episode three Agency s Philosophy, Product and Practice.
00:01:17:06 - 00:01:44:09
Unknown
Charlie Anker us into this these three P's. What do they mean and how do they interact? Well, thanks for that, Luke, and good to join you again. The way to think about this is if you've got a piece of paper in front of you just to draw a triangle on it, and if you haven't got a piece of paper to imagine a triangle and at the top of the triangle, a philosophy.
00:01:44:19 - 00:02:30:03
Unknown
So schools that develop agency, I think have a philosophy of learning. And what that's not is an account of their exam results or their test scores or where their students go next. It's about a sort of core belief, a shared core belief about what learning is, what it's for, how it happens. And it's about young people as both reflective and responsible protagonists and initiators of learning and how they use that knowledge as a sort of unfolding potential, I suppose an ability to act in the world to act on their intent, but also to understand who they are as a result.
00:02:30:18 - 00:02:58:05
Unknown
So it's important that these schools have something like a philosophy that runs through them, runs through not just the way that they teach and they learn, but also through their other activities. And it's not a policy and it's not a program. It is a philosophy. So that's the starting point is the top of the triangle, the philosophy. But philosophy can be really vague and abstract.
00:02:58:05 - 00:03:21:08
Unknown
So that's not enough, is it? So on the bottom right hand side of the triangle, I think the other thing that these schools have is what I call products the concrete, the tangible, the bounded. You can do things with them. A product might be design thinking, cause a product might be an entrepreneurship course, project based learning, real world learning.
00:03:21:08 - 00:03:44:10
Unknown
It might be a change to a timetable to allow more time for projects to develop and students to explore and to converse about what they're doing. It might be a new approach to assessment, so it's difficult to convey agency to embedded to allow both students and teachers to understand what it is unless there are sort of concrete things.
00:03:44:10 - 00:04:09:15
Unknown
What does that actually mean in real life? So you need something concrete. And then the third thing is practice, because philosophy and product on their own aren't enough. One's too vague, the other is too concrete. And so you need the sense that it's all brought to life by practice as both the practice of teachers, but also the practice of students, and then the practice of an entire sort of school community.
00:04:09:23 - 00:04:35:18
Unknown
And it's that practice of daily routines and habits, ways of being, ways of working together, ways of living together which bring it to life. So what I saw with the schools in this project was that whether they started with a product, they, they they needed to go to having a philosophy in developing a practice. If they started with a philosophy, they needed to turn it into product and practice.
00:04:36:03 - 00:05:00:24
Unknown
If they had practice, they needed to turn it into products and a philosophy which could spread. So the sort of dynamic interaction of these three things that really generates change, it seems to me you don't get just stuck in one corner doing one thing. You're constantly moving between them. I wonder then, Charlie, is it also the case that all three need to be prioritized?
00:05:01:04 - 00:05:29:03
Unknown
You know, is this not this is not a cascade, this is this idea of dynamic interaction? Is that how you would frame it? Yeah. You're constantly moving between them and you're also respecting the knowledge that's involved in all three. And you're respecting, you know, when when a teacher says, But what does this mean in real life? You're respecting that need for something concrete to hang on to and to to put that cap on, to learn.
00:05:30:04 - 00:05:55:17
Unknown
But but when if you start with a product, it will often lead nowhere or just lead down at that end to a particular thing, unless it's expressed in a philosophy that can then be applied elsewhere. And then I think it is about real respect to the practice of how is this done, which, you know, can come through in case studies and teachers sharing their practice with one another, with students developing new practices.
00:05:55:24 - 00:06:18:09
Unknown
So it is about constantly moving and using all bits of that to generate that kind of momentum for change. That's fantastic. And of course, even the way we've structured this series is about the kind of conceptual meeting, the concrete, because we have here joining us three fantastic practitioners from three different schools as part of this ongoing now three year project.
00:06:18:21 - 00:06:41:05
Unknown
And so I'm going to hand to them to introduce themselves a little bit about the work they're involved in and where they're from. Someone I means atmospheres and I'm a teacher of economics and leading studies at wells and in schools Girls. I'm just about to step into the acting head of senior school role as well. And I've been part of the student agency for three years.
00:06:41:05 - 00:07:06:24
Unknown
It's fantastic. Alice, great to have you here with us. I'm Tim Ryan here on the deputy principal at University Senior Coach University, Sydney College is basically in the central life. We're on the light campus. We operate after building it. Recently we moved into a second campus just off the place, which is also in the city. So our students basically move between those two camps.
00:07:06:24 - 00:07:34:21
Unknown
During the course of the day. We quite unique in that we have a very strong partnership with university as well. So we use the library facilities such as lecture theaters and so forth and even near future pathways. People come and speak to our students and it's fantastic to have you here. Remember, we're learning and teaching right from salary from primary school, which is the primary school in the southern suburbs of Adelaide for about 350 students.
00:07:35:10 - 00:07:57:06
Unknown
Fantastic. Well, welcome to the three of you and Charlie. You know, it's going to be a fabulous delve into these three PS. Alice, I'd love to start with you and the experience there at Walford. You know, this is a multi year project. Where did you begin and what's kind of been the journey from that place? Well, we're really lucky to already have our philosophy very much established.
00:07:57:06 - 00:08:25:22
Unknown
So we've got a set of learning principles which the staff collaboratively developed in around 2018. So we were a part of that process. So we only vice principals as well. So a great place to start. And so what we wanted to do was really to create a bridge between that philosophy and the practice in our classrooms. So to do that, we've developed a set of cards which the staff can use in their teaching practice.
00:08:26:07 - 00:08:59:22
Unknown
So we call them out cards, not just for the metaphor of the mountain, but also because it's a final learning principles, because that's the really the core of what we want our teachers to be doing about the students to be doing every day in every classroom is to apply those learning principles. I'm interested in how the kind of products here of this card deck has, how you've seen that play a role in terms of the shift in practice over time, because as you say, you've kind of got the philosophy stated already.
00:09:00:04 - 00:09:23:16
Unknown
And so it's about those other two components potentially. How's it, how's it being deployed, used So every teacher got a set of these cards as well as a little kind of reflection toolkit as well. And we gave them to all of our Goodwill's as well at the start of the year. All right. And they've left them to the point where they are the ones bringing out the cards and saying, Hey, let's, let's see which out we should apply in this context.
00:09:24:07 - 00:09:44:22
Unknown
So it's really been about not making life harder for anyone but helping all of us to work better for the teachers and for the students as well. It's really been a fantastic product. It's been well received. Can you share one or two of them? It's just so that people can get a sense of what's, you know, what's on this and how how might they be use.
00:09:45:03 - 00:10:14:07
Unknown
I wish I could say them because yeah, they are very impressive, beautiful, very lucky to have a design person on on this. The team that that developed is fabulous. So one he's one from the Visible Thinking Harvard Project zero. Lots of people familiar with that so it's an imaginative could it be more beautiful ethical, efficient, effective So a thinking routine that can be applied in a number of contexts and it really is a pick up and go with it and it lets the students do the thinking, not the teacher.
00:10:14:14 - 00:10:35:14
Unknown
It's the students they need to guide through that process. So they are really accessible and I think the kids have enjoyed using them as well. Yeah, that's a great The fact you can hold it in your hand makes it really tangible, doesn't it? Really concrete. Thank you so much, Alice. Tim, let's hear from you as well. Where have you started on this journey and where are you up to so far?
00:10:36:14 - 00:11:12:01
Unknown
We also started with the philosophy because essentially as a school we have a strategic direction and as part of that there are graduate attributes. And so as strategic direction, striking is that students take charge of their learning. And we of course, engage in the sense that prior to meetings, joining us for the first time in 2020, every year, the intake of new students was about 180 students coming here, 11 And what was quite unique was that probably 85 to 90% of the students who joined us were coming here because they chose the school rather than their parents interests.
00:11:12:01 - 00:11:32:14
Unknown
So that itself is wonderful urgency right from the outset. And so essentially you've got that underlying philosophy as to why we're in place to school and how we operate as a school. And then the product very much as being students and obviously finding different ways to take charge of that. So as an example, part of the product might be around the timetable.
00:11:33:00 - 00:11:51:20
Unknown
So our timetable for year 12 is that we start at 8:00 in the morning. We have four books, 2 hours during the day and we finish at five in the afternoon. So a year 11 student, for example, might have a classroom, 8 to 10, 10 to 12 have an hour for lunch. And then I have another class to three.
00:11:52:11 - 00:12:15:05
Unknown
So they have effectively 2 to 3 hours in the middle of the day. So for my 11 students, that would be a great time to waste time. But as students, very good at actually learning how to use that time really effectively and being involved in small group learning, going off to spend longer, going off to the university library, all those sorts of things.
00:12:16:01 - 00:12:39:07
Unknown
And so they're learning to be independent learners at a very early stage in their singing secondary schooling. And that's something that we encourage and we support all the way through. So if you what is the philosophy that there's the product Sorry, there's the Yeah, there's the product and then it's really been how has the practice changed since the year ten start at the beginning of last year?
00:12:39:07 - 00:12:59:10
Unknown
Because it's sometimes not quite phrasing. Yeah, that's been interesting. I'm going to come back to that because I want you to talk more about this fantastic run. I give us a bit of a sense around the three piece specifically here. What's been the journey for you there at Calvary? So we're mostly side with the philosophy. So we had a philosophy around school.
00:12:59:10 - 00:13:19:05
Unknown
I'm going to go to Simon Rich. The success we reached then for relationships, engagement, achievement, cross centered and holistic learning. And from that we had developed a Calvary learning appraisal, which is basically instead of learning at home, which was sort of like you before age. So when we say to success, what does that mean? What does that look like?
00:13:19:05 - 00:13:43:12
Unknown
So we had these learning outcomes and it was then about I was involved in a project at this stage and it's goes to Australia and it was about developing a product that was reflective of that. So we developed the capturing of that which was developed during grade a three day program with that. And so then when we became part of the student agency lab, it was about developing the practice.
00:13:43:12 - 00:14:05:09
Unknown
So we had the philosophy for success. We had the product of the lab and it was being about the practice of how our students engaged with that, with the aim that we wanted to create a learning environment that promoted and supported our learners to pursue that goals and the product of the learning. That was what we used to do that.
00:14:05:12 - 00:14:24:03
Unknown
MM Fantastic. Charlie, I want to bring you in here. I mean, all three schools have reflected on philosophy as a starting point and I mean, I think it's fair for us to all reflect that Many schools have beautiful visions. You know, here's the vision of what we want, and it's just not yet lived out in Perth. Practice or potentially products.
00:14:24:15 - 00:14:58:18
Unknown
What's the reflection that you would add to this conversation? Well, that Perth schools do need a philosophy which runs through them, but you need ways to enact that and build on it and make it light and real both in products but also in, as they say in practice. And what struck me particularly about Alex's description, but also Rene's map is the sense that you create something that is between the student and the teacher, a sort of intermediate thing that the student can pick up as well as the teacher.
00:14:59:03 - 00:15:27:05
Unknown
And and so it creates a new kind of relationship. But it's also that, I mean, both a map of the card, the tools as well, they can be used for different purposes in different settings, but they're very adaptable. So so I think that that designing those products in a way that makes them really interesting, productive, usable is really is a really important thing.
00:15:27:15 - 00:16:00:01
Unknown
And and then Tim talking about and raising the issue, which I know several schools have also tackled, which is you know, one of the big things about school is time is that our time is bunched up and how can we use time differently? And and the sort of timetable, if you like, is a sort of scheduling of product, chunks of lessons as a product, or how did you open that up so that you could use the time in a, in a different kind of way I think is also an interesting aspect of exploration for the schools.
00:16:00:01 - 00:16:28:04
Unknown
And I think many of them have flexed that flexibility to allow different kinds of learning to develop. I love this idea of the product being in between in the space, in between, because of course, if we design a product for agency, which we as teachers control, we effectively antigenic in this design as well. Tim, I want to get to you first because you mentioned this, you know, year ten, you know, putting a whole new cohort in that.
00:16:28:10 - 00:16:55:11
Unknown
The question for all three of you really is what's been the greatest challenge across this work so far and and thinking about the product and the practice and the philosophy I think for us, however, was that you tend, as I said, have an Australian curriculum as opposed to the space. Today you're letting some folks in. So it's a little bit more than I need to do when we had a great opportunity and in that we could actually develop a unique curriculum for them as well.
00:16:55:20 - 00:17:20:04
Unknown
So as much as we've thought through elements of the Australian curriculum that cool, we also do stage one philosophy now. So we're very much about creating ethical thinkers, which is actually a cool capability and strong curriculum, but it is also an integral part of we have many of our students looking guy to university pathway. They need to be an ethical researcher or an ethical student when you get to that level.
00:17:20:12 - 00:17:53:16
Unknown
So certainly introducing them to a core element of philosophy in year ten has been incredibly invaluable and I've really enjoyed that opportunity. And the other thing I do is something a little bit more creative. So I'm actually doing a semester of creative arts as well, so they have some opportunity to choose some of these innovations. And then in the second semester we do a year 11, Stage one Creative Arts, and at that point in time the student agency takes over because they determine what the project is going to be.
00:17:54:03 - 00:18:18:20
Unknown
They're involved in whatever they are interested in being involved in. So to give you a bit of an idea, last year we did a midsummer Night's Dream. This year they're doing Allison Wonderland. And so at the moment you've got students who are involved in creating set and costumes. You've got students who are learning their lines, you've got students who are performing music and working on the Lion's den and various other aspects of the performance.
00:18:19:07 - 00:18:40:19
Unknown
And that's coming up in a couple of weeks time. And then parents get invited to that. And obviously other members of the school community. So they love the act because it's an opportunity to be agents in a really creative space where as the intense, there's not necessarily a lot of creativity in other aspects of the curriculum potential. Interesting.
00:18:41:08 - 00:19:00:02
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. So, well, that's why we're overheads on the way we're doing. Thanks, Tim. Unless it's going to you. What's been the greatest challenge so far from that? The philosophical base that you spoke of as a starting point? I think for us that we are an established school with great results. Clearly a lot of it has been working.
00:19:00:02 - 00:19:27:24
Unknown
So you know, if it's working, why, why change it? So it was really around putting a good case forward for why we can improve what we're doing, why we can change what's happening in the classroom, Because that really, as we've talked about, that teachers feel like they own that very much and as they should. But it's also an opportunity for them to grow and develop in what they are doing as well to practice what we preach a little bit.
00:19:28:05 - 00:19:49:22
Unknown
So I think it was a challenge, but absolutely an opportunity as well for us to improve what we're doing in the classroom and to once you kind of show that it works, then that more and more people get on board and almost become self-fulfilling because in the students are asking for it as well. So the teachers, you know, they have to get on board, they've got to keep making it real.
00:19:49:23 - 00:20:14:14
Unknown
That's such a great such a great point. You know, that the mother invention is sometimes a necessity. And so what happens when we haven't we're not seeing the clear disruptive elements within a particular space and that the case needs to be made, including to ourselves, as we move forward. Rene, what about your greatest challenge in the kind of learning map piece and how that's all come together?
00:20:15:18 - 00:20:34:21
Unknown
Probably the answer. I would say our greatest challenge was set as teachers were heavily focused on the what and how the student agency rather than the law. So it was all there was excitement, but there was also concerns around how community and what was it going to look like and is this really achievable and all that sort of stuff.
00:20:34:21 - 00:20:55:12
Unknown
And so the focus was more on the day to day and not like to be a teacher. And yet when you spoke, once we got into the project and started to develop that and use the Met, our students were focusing on the whole set of teachers, but still, I guess on the walk in the house. So it was thanks to always competing narratives that you went trying to navigate.
00:20:56:07 - 00:21:34:01
Unknown
Hmm. Interesting. And in that space, the next question for all three of you, what's something that surprised you about the way that this product has worked through that or the way that some teachers or some students may have responded to kind of. Well, basically, the the innovation that you're driving in that probably for me it was around. So students were using the math and I have not to say what it was and all of that, but it was about when they developed that definition and to see that come to life around what student agency goes into them, to incorporate the math into that and the gold setting.
00:21:34:15 - 00:22:10:02
Unknown
So it was all making sense to them so that they understood what we were talking. Okay, so that was great. That was really helpful. And it was and it led to a membership that teachers as well. And this idea of, you know, being able to hold up something saying this is me or this is my agency, as opposed, you know, and really grounding into the the concrete and the math and the language that gave them the language to be able to speak about what's reaching for success at Calvary looks like and what that means, guys in that language and then having that definition as well let's say powerful.
00:22:10:04 - 00:22:28:13
Unknown
Mm I love it. Tim What about something that surprised you across these, you know, last few years of this work? I think probably the biggest surprise came from the students who are now in year 11 who were part of that local group of tenths because to be say to them, they started the year with a lot of enthusiasm.
00:22:28:13 - 00:23:01:03
Unknown
They were getting exposed to this idea of being agents of their own learning. And then the pandemic began. And so that that closed things down a little bit. And certainly in terms of the opportunity to be involved in co-curricular activities, especially. So whether it's a combined staff, student choir or whatever it might be, and they weren't able to participate in those type of activities that also had some extensive planning that they put in place to be involved in raising some funds potentially for the victims of the bushfires in the Allied Hills and on Kangaroo Island.
00:23:01:20 - 00:23:22:04
Unknown
We were also supposed to be going on a grand roll and the venue was totally burned to the ground. So there were a number of things that happened very early on for these great meetings for the first time that potentially could, as I said, the experience, if you like. And yet realistically they performed incredibly well through the year.
00:23:22:14 - 00:23:50:19
Unknown
What I think was probably most powerful for me. And whilst I'd say it's a little bit surprising, one sense it's not. And that was earlier this year I was with a group of students who attended a presentation by the Australian Youth Representative for the United Nations, and she came to our school and she met with great interest students at lunchtime and the students over there happened to be from the town last year.
00:23:51:15 - 00:24:16:12
Unknown
And so the way that they interacted with her and and the delegates from South Australia at the time was absolutely incredible because I would say it was so powerful, they were so passionate about what they were raising. The particular issues, and then they got the opportunities for those issues to be settled. When they went to the UN Youth Forum, I could nangyari Bel Air about two weeks after that.
00:24:16:20 - 00:24:40:14
Unknown
So they they absolutely enjoyed that and it was really, really rare. Sandy I suppose, for me as a member of staff, but also for the school in general, to actually see them being agents in that respect when you know they could have had a salary experience that potentially put them on set. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing around this disruption and there's lots of debate about this.
00:24:40:14 - 00:25:03:01
Unknown
Charlie, you might want to pick up after we hear from Alice that the pandemic in some ways has shifted the agency dial, you know, because it's it's forced all of us just to have to react. And, you know, if you didn't want to turn up to class, you just didn't open your laptop screen. You know, so compliance kind of you know, there was a choice and an additional suite of choices that had to be made, which is such an interesting moment in time.
00:25:03:01 - 00:25:24:15
Unknown
Alice, what about you? What's what surprised you across this work so far? I think for me, it's been the enthusiastic take out from the students and even the core of what we were trying to do is to get them to be agents of their own learning and really putting this tool in front of them that embraced it and have have done it.
00:25:24:15 - 00:25:47:22
Unknown
They've been agents of their own learning. So we originally thought they would just be tools for teachers to use in the classroom. But when we had the idea actually, you know, to give them to the students as well, yeah, it really opened it up. And so to the point where I would I had been working with students in class, we used a simple viewpoints thinking routine that one of the students in that class and counting later had said.
00:25:48:21 - 00:26:10:16
Unknown
Hemispheres That really worked well for me in that classroom. Can you help me do it with this other subject? So she was the one who brought it all to me. And also this all did it, which was just exactly where we wanted them to be, driving their own learning and it really has just given an opportunity to frame their thinking and deepen their thinking, which is exactly what we want to.
00:26:10:20 - 00:26:50:01
Unknown
That's fantastic to have young people asking for what they need, and it's such a powerful thing to consider as part of the school experience. Then. Charlie, what do you want to add on after these great, great reflections here? Well, just in just a couple of thoughts and then a question, really. So the one is I'm struck by the map of Calgary and the the idea of a map as a tool, but also as a metaphor for the you not just finding a quicker route from A to B, you are trying to map out where you might go and what have you.
00:26:50:01 - 00:27:15:12
Unknown
So creating better maps, I think is a really interesting because there is something about all of this which is about, as people have said, opening out possibility to discover, to explore, and to sort of step in going deeper. So really interesting, Renee, saying the students were asking the why question and the teachers were asking how a more question, that dynamic, what comes out of it.
00:27:16:23 - 00:27:39:19
Unknown
So almost as if they're sort of in slightly different bits of the triangle of philosophy purpose, practice. And I think, you know, the pandemic, I suppose what it's done is it's it's just that allowed people force people to say, well, do you have to do it that way? Is there another way to do it? It's opened up that question.
00:27:40:05 - 00:28:18:24
Unknown
And I think that's what all these schools are doing is sort of daring to open up the question, which is, is there a different, better way to do this and which might create more, has more value in the long run for students, more impactful, transformational learning experiences. So one of the questions that I have is we've spoken a lot about the difficulties of getting teachers sometimes to shift, and we've also spoken about the transformational impact of students picking up these tools and showing what's possible.
00:28:19:09 - 00:28:40:14
Unknown
But has it also been difficult at times to get students to really do it because the students want to know what success looks like and they're used to sort of knowing how to tick the box and get the good result? Or has it has it just happened or or are they just waiting for it? Or does that need real encouragement?
00:28:40:14 - 00:29:02:21
Unknown
Because some of them are kind of cautious about it. They're not quite sure how to enter this space. Wonderful question. Who wants to tackle that first? I have found with our students that they have been, and I've found that the thinking routines and tools are really rewarding. It's kind of when we're using them and they're really engaged that they are.
00:29:02:22 - 00:29:23:18
Unknown
Then on the lessons over is in those kinds of moments, which is because they're so involved and so engaged at the time. And also especially if they're working independently, they're really fun to be there in that great thinking that we haven't had to convince them they are that grabbing onto it and they're not just not just in that moment sitting moments later in their learning.
00:29:23:18 - 00:29:45:03
Unknown
So that's been a real success story for us. I think it's fantastic. I think it speaks to the idea of the tool being so accessible and you know, it becoming this. Yeah, and having multiple applications and not just a one off thing you do that they have a sense of ownership of it that I can use this. And how useful is that going to be when they're not at school?
00:29:45:15 - 00:30:10:08
Unknown
And because at work or in some other setting, they think, Oh, actually I could do it this way. So, you know, it creates a sort of transferable ways of thinking and acting, which will pay dividends for such a long time for these students. Because I love this idea of just a tool, like a suite of tools at your disposal where you can you can pull them out.
00:30:10:11 - 00:30:38:06
Unknown
When you're called to act, you have multiple options all the time in terms of how you do that. Tim Renee, what do you think? I think probably one of the biggest things for us really is let's a little bit about the products before bringing the nature of the time table. And so one of the things that we also have, which is quite unique but it's really, really powerful, is that students make availability appointments to school.
00:30:38:15 - 00:31:01:01
Unknown
So because there are these gaps in the timetable, then a teacher, for example, might have to buy two out of classes in a subject in a week and then they have another. Albert's allocated to them being available for one on one appointments. And so the students have to initiate those. So they use a phone that we use to find out.
00:31:01:04 - 00:31:19:16
Unknown
And then the they basically book an appointment with their teacher. It goes straight into the teacher's calendar. And so they have to indicate what they're coming for. So that might be saying the chemistry teacher, because I've got some issues with a prep report and I need some support there. But the students can initiate all of that contact with their teachers.
00:31:19:16 - 00:32:00:19
Unknown
So it is much more powerful for being your own teacher anyway than being a tutor, for example. And so we find that certainly in year 11, the students are really putting their toe in the water. When I say stop in terms of making those appointments because it's something quite foreign to them, but we're finding then I guess more and more prevalent during the course of the year, the year was just having those appointments from five year terms extensively look at their teachers to the point where the teachers will find other times, so they'll find time anywhere else in the day because they want to honor that agency by the students to actually say to them
00:32:00:19 - 00:32:20:16
Unknown
about their learning. And that's a really powerful thing that we have in place. And it's often one of those things that is highlighted by year 12 students in their exit interview. It's, you know, what's the thing that you really liked about the School of Love Student Agency, student availability appointments and the opportunity to say, my teacher when I need a bit of extra help.
00:32:20:19 - 00:32:39:00
Unknown
Yeah. Gosh, it's so powerful, isn't it? It's just putting the decision in the hands of the young people. And what do you want to share about this? You know, the question on is it is it how do we support students to come on this journey as well? And knowing that they and their parents have existing conceptions of how school works and what have you found?
00:32:39:08 - 00:32:56:17
Unknown
Yeah, I think for some of our students it was quite confronting to have to have this language interjected. You know, we were asking them to reflect on themselves as a leader and tell us what are for them to say, what they perceive to be their strengths in the areas with work. So they were so used to teachers doing that wrong.
00:32:57:01 - 00:33:13:20
Unknown
And so that was a really big shift to some of our some of our students. What will you tell me what you think I need to do? And so what I'm good at, as with it, was the would you tell us what we think and then what do we need to be doing in school teachers to help you grow?
00:33:13:20 - 00:33:38:16
Unknown
Go to areas and parties to strengthen your strengths. And so that was that's been really being true to some of our students, some of the students that were brought on board straight away. But some found that really confronting the challenge. So good. Renee, where's your next? I think it's around continuing just to grow without sitting with, you know, email.
00:33:38:16 - 00:33:57:12
Unknown
We're in three days into the Friday. It's still really early and that students are still just really getting the hang of the language of the line of math. And so I think it's about continuing to grow that goal setting. And then around how do we know, have students monitor phones and all that sort of stuff. So I think, you know, we do.
00:33:57:15 - 00:34:18:21
Unknown
And it's that kind of instruction as well around what's going to work for students and what's going to work for our teachers. So that's where to name. MM Fantastic team. What about you? What's next for them? I think for us it's probably really around the students having more and more opportunities to take the lead in terms of leading new students coming through.
00:34:19:16 - 00:34:42:22
Unknown
But I would say to interact with the teachers a little bit more. So what I mean by that is, you know, for instance, we already have groups of students who volunteer to basically be parties for new students doing orientation and those kinds of things as students basically lead all of their tours. So they are the best people to speak about at school because they're living in at least advocates.
00:34:43:04 - 00:35:23:15
Unknown
So they walk around with prospective families and they talk about their experience. We might speak very briefly to a group of people that are coming on a tour and we're just silent. Anybody's fair game. You can ask anybody in the school a question whether it's a teacher or a student, and generally of our students. The questions I think probably the other thing is that we now have situations where we've got students who have been working on some of our new mentoring program, and a big part of that is around the respectful relationships that a group of students have in working with the young people on that, and they are really very passionate about it.
00:35:24:12 - 00:35:49:08
Unknown
And their next step is to make it the teachers and and talk about what they would like to see in those sorts of programs as well. MM Gosh, that's fantastic. Alice Alright, you. Well I think for us we're going to be going to continue building these tools, so creating more tools, creating more ways for staff and students to access the tools and really scale it out.
00:35:49:08 - 00:36:12:05
Unknown
So making sure that those tools are getting to younger students as they go as well. And I think the other really key part of it is to continue to share the success, so share the stories about what's happening in the classroom, share the inspiration, share those magical aha moments that you get with the kids to make sure that everyone keeps moving forward and takes up the opportunity.
00:36:12:10 - 00:36:39:22
Unknown
MM Fantastic. Charlie what you want to add to this piece around next steps? Well, just that there's a very dynamic relationship between means and then between why and how? Because you open up a ready says you go, you go and ask them. So what do you want? They tell us what you want. You start forming some goals. The goals open up new ways of doing things.
00:36:39:22 - 00:37:00:17
Unknown
New How? How do you do this then? But then you build up that capability and it allows you to set new goals. So it's not just means to ends, it's actually the more capability you generate the new tool. So when I start spreading those tools, there there are how things I see it will generate new enemies, won't it?
00:37:00:17 - 00:37:33:03
Unknown
And then the school will become richer in its purposes and what have you. So in a way there's it's about sort of imagining what kind of what kind of organism or system the school is. So there's this systems thinker called Bella Donati, who wrote in the in the eighties and nineties, and he had these different ways of thinking about systems he said determined stick systems are where both the end and the means are heavily prescribed.
00:37:33:15 - 00:37:56:04
Unknown
There's very little room for initiative. It's like a machine. There are purposive systems where the means are clear, but you've got a little bit more scope to adjust. The the ends are clear, but you've got a bit more scope to adjust the means. You can adjust the how if you can find a way to improve it. And he said then there are there are other systems which are much more purpose seeking.
00:37:56:13 - 00:38:24:18
Unknown
So they allow people to create new purposes and they also allow people to interpret the world to imagine what those new could be. And I think what you've heard today is schools moving along that continuum step by step to become more purpose, seeking more interpretive, more open both to new means and new ends at the same time, and that generating an entirely new kind of dynamic.
00:38:25:00 - 00:38:58:10
Unknown
And it's not unstructured, it's not without frameworks, it's not let a thousand flowers bloom. It's not just choice in voice. There's something much more thoughtful and careful and interactive about it, but that's the kind of dynamic that they're creating, it seems to me, and it's really, really powerful. And one of the interesting things will be, you know, whether you can stop it, I mean, in a way, because it sort of acquires a kind of momentum to it once once it's out, once those cards are out.
00:38:58:24 - 00:39:18:22
Unknown
You know, I love the idea of those cards kind of, you know, just being out there. You know, once you've released them into the world, they can do all sorts of things with those cards. Currently, it's kind of such a generative idea. So, yeah, I love that. I love that a lot. It's yeah, once it's kind of into the ecosystem, you can't take it back anymore.
00:39:18:22 - 00:39:43:15
Unknown
It's now part of a new conception and again interacts with the philosophy, the practice and the product that we've been talking about today. I'd love us to close the conversation with a piece of advice that each of you would give. And Charlie one from you as well in about how to how to do this work. If you are an educator or team or school, you know someone that's really interested in and pursuing this work.
00:39:44:08 - 00:40:09:16
Unknown
Alice I think it's really about remembering what your purpose is, our purpose as educators, to really bring that right, get excited and surround yourself with the other changemakers in your organization. I've been so privileged to work with an amazing team, so this and we've moved forward and didn't give up. So I think that's what it's about. Bring the right and get the right people around.
00:40:09:16 - 00:40:34:06
Unknown
You love it too. I think probably of the most important things is to agree have a purpose, but at the same time have a bit of an idea of the theory as well. It's associated with this because that's a really good area to go back to from time to time. And I think probably the other thing then is also to be nimble because with the experience set in the last couple of years.
00:40:34:16 - 00:40:59:05
Unknown
So don't be afraid to take risks and and to basically change your direction if you need to, because that itself opens up incredibly new opportunities. Hmm, Fantastic. Renee Probably two things. First would be to reflect on what product, philosophy and practice you already have that you could drive the development So you can see the context needs that as a starting point.
00:40:59:19 - 00:41:19:23
Unknown
And I think the other thing as well is that which I also touched on the program, focusing on the white student, I can see again contextualize it and ensure that that big picture thinking is at the heart of what we're doing. MM And, Charlie, a final word from you. Yeah, I mean I agree with, with all of that.
00:41:19:23 - 00:41:46:06
Unknown
I think small can be big. So a set of cards can tell an entire story about a school, about education, about learning. And it's that sort of movement between the micro with incident stories, individual students to the macro and constantly having that interplay in your head as you're going about it. And this is a big story. These, you know, these young people, their lives, the big stories.
00:41:47:09 - 00:42:05:04
Unknown
So they deserve to be able to tell that in a big way. That's fantastic. Well, thank you to Alice, Tim, Renee and of course, you, Charlie, for delving into this lesson number three agency is philosophy, product and practice. It's been a delightful conversation.