Meaningful & Memorable Public Work: Olli-Pekka Heinonen
How might a background in politics, including as Minister of Education, shape an approach to public education?
What significant initiatives or reforms from Government might spearhead successful and positive education reform in the public sector?
Mr Olli-Pekka Heinonen became the 8th Director General of the International Baccalaureate Organization on 1 May 2021.
Prior to joining the IB, Mr Heinonen was Director General of the Finnish National Agency for Education where he worked from January 2017.
Mr Heinonen had an active career in politics in Finland between 1994 and 2002: he was Minister of Education and Science from 1994-1999; Minister of Transport and Communication from 1999-2002 and a Member of Parliament from 1995-2002.
From 2002 to 2012, Mr Heinonen was Director of Yle, the Finnish national public broadcasting company, before joining the Finnish Prime Minister’s Office in March 2012 as State Secretary, responsible for organizing and leading the office. He has also been responsible, as State Secretary, for the portfolios of the Ministry of Education and Culture, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Foreign Trade and Development and then as State Secretary at the Ministry of Finance of Finland.
Mr Heinonen holds a Master of Laws from the University of Helsinki in Finland and has been awarded honorary doctorates by both the University of Jyväskylä and the University of Turku in Finland. He is married and has three children.
—-
This Season is done in partnership with Salzburg Global Seminar. https://www.salzburgglobal.org/
Please check out our partner’s publication advocating for education transformation: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/issue/transformed-the-case-for-education-transformation
[TRANSCRIPT AUTO-GENERATED]
00;00;06;00 - 00;00;24;10
Louka Parry
Hello dear friends, and welcome to the Learning Future podcast. I'm your host, of course. Look up, Harry. And today we've got an absolute treat because we are speaking with Mr. Olli Pekka Heinonen and the director general of the International Baccalaureate Organization. He's actually the eighth ever director general, and he stepped into that role on the 1st of May 2021.
00;00;24;10 - 00;00;47;22
Louka Parry
Before that, he was actually the director general of the Finnish National Agency for Education, where he worked from January 2017. It's fair to say he's I think you've almost held every position in in Finnish politics. Looking at your bio here, given you know, Minister of Education and Science from 94 to 99, transport communication from 99 to 2002 and member of Parliament from 85 to 2002.
00;00;47;24 - 00;01;10;27
Louka Parry
And he's also before that he was the director of Lay. And you have to put out get my pronunciation right on that. But that's the Finnish National Public Broadcasting Company. And so, again, he joins us with this incredible amount of expertise, that state secretary of portfolios of Ministry of Education and Culture and Foreign Trade and Development Ministry of Finance just goes on and on, all of which is wonderful.
00;01;10;27 - 00;01;29;24
Louka Parry
And you hold of master of laws and honorary doctorates, in fact, from two different universities in Finland as well. He also is married, has three kids. So, you know, he's human, amazingly, as part with all of that incredible kind of CV to begin us with. But only if I can. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation.
00;01;29;26 - 00;01;31;28
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Mindless Loker.
00;01;32;00 - 00;01;45;03
Louka Parry
It's great to reconnect with you. It's been a few years since Salzburg where we met. But question one is what's something you're learning at the moment as a lifelong learner? Clearly? What's something that you're learning?
00;01;45;06 - 00;02;20;02
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Well, I'm I'm learning. I'm learning French. Living in Geneva. It's a necessity here. And it's kind of it's been so interesting to kind of learn a new language from scratch. And part of the learning French has been a learning experience on itself for me to kind of kind of try to look at yourself and look at how the learning happens.
00;02;20;02 - 00;02;27;16
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Also, at the same time. Really enjoyed it.
00;02;27;18 - 00;02;48;25
Louka Parry
We just we on Tanya upon France they will see that that refers to your book. Yeah I mean it's a learning language I think as an adult is such a incredible remembering of the learning process that young people go through every single day in schools. You know, it's the beginner's mindset. Once more that constant failure, the pit of learning, as we call it.
00;02;48;25 - 00;02;53;12
Louka Parry
You know, it's there for you. Olli Pekka.
00;02;53;15 - 00;03;23;22
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Thank you. And it's kind of, as you said, it's the question really that you get aware of the amount of kind of kind of effort that you need to put into it. It's also kind of repeated, repeated, repeat repeating also. And sometimes we kind of when we are planning the future of education and learning, we kind of forget that you need to have also that part there.
00;03;23;24 - 00;03;26;13
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Mm hmm. Yeah. That it is.
00;03;26;16 - 00;03;45;14
Louka Parry
Falling down and getting back up over and over again and embarrassing yourself in the process, especially with language learning, which is great. Well, on that future of education piece. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, this is called Education Transformed. Now, when you think about transformation as an agenda or as a construct, now, what is it that comes to your mind?
00;03;45;14 - 00;03;50;01
Louka Parry
How might you articulate what transformation means to you?
00;03;50;03 - 00;04;34;00
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Hmm. Well, I think the word transform, I guess, initially meant that two things are coming closer to each other. And it's not in form. It's not reform, but it's transform. Mm hmm. And for me, it it's. What are those two two things that are coming close to do gather when we're talking about trends, formative or power of education is it's the learner and the world.
00;04;34;03 - 00;05;10;06
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Mm hmm. That are coming closer to each other. But it is also the way that the society is transforming itself. So it's also the kind of, you know, way it's a it's a way of updating the society to better be fit with the challenges and the kind of aspirations for a better future. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So. So that's.
00;05;10;08 - 00;05;28;06
Olli Pekka Heinonen
That's the way I see it. And I also believe that we are living in a way, in a world between times like. Like. Like spine rise.
00;05;28;08 - 00;05;29;29
Louka Parry
Yes, yes.
00;05;30;01 - 00;05;56;20
Olli Pekka Heinonen
That's. And in times like that, the really the the transformative power of education is that are we capable of using that tool as individuals, as communities, as society, as a global mankind? Mm hmm. To. To what? It could be on its best.
00;05;56;23 - 00;06;23;29
Louka Parry
That's beautiful. I love this idea of the learner and the world moving closer towards each other and something that I think for, you know, mass education systems or mass schooling systems that were very much I mean, my my reflection often is people say education is broken. I don't use that frame at all. I think it functions as it was meant to function, but it's just no longer it hasn't been updated to use your language for some time.
00;06;23;29 - 00;06;49;29
Louka Parry
And I mean, the IB has very much been a leader in this for some some decades, one might even say. So I guess and yeah, Zack's done a very, very keen I had a chat with him recently as well actually, so he'll be a future guest on the podcast. But this, this idea of being between worlds and in some ways that feels like where we are in education in this moment is kind of the letting go of the old, but also the embracing the new post-COVID post, all these other challenges.
00;06;50;01 - 00;07;13;01
Louka Parry
How how do you see that kind of the future of education being not just reimagined, but remade? Because I think that for a long time people have said we need a new way or we need an A transformed way of understanding this. And, you know, the UN, G.A. last year had the Transforming Education Summit as its as it's effectively kind of it's headline.
00;07;13;04 - 00;07;31;04
Louka Parry
And so what's your reflections the long term policy maker educator Olli Pekka in this space about where we need to head. What are some of the shifts that are required against the backdrop of a society that is also shifting?
00;07;31;06 - 00;08;31;25
Olli Pekka Heinonen
I think it's a good question because there is there's kind of so much noise in the space of education in all this course, and it's very difficult to kind of see what's the message really there that you should catch, whether signals really are And I know I, I do think that there is something very kind of fundamental happening with the idea of moving in a situation where the how would I say the learning is more a kind of an emergent function.
00;08;31;28 - 00;09;09;08
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And that kind of challenges the question that how we the older generations are capable of transferring the valuable to the new generations. Both we are all or since so many things. And it's as you said, about the question of how to how to move to a new place. It's it's not any more the way that the the older generations are helping the younger generations.
00;09;09;08 - 00;09;56;12
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But I think it is more a situation where we need the different generations to help each other, to support each other, to get over that border and and it needs to be a coherent story that we need to build with the old world and New world, cos it's an identity quest and it, it it kind of will not be a functioning identity if we are not capable of telling what the past really is building you.
00;09;56;14 - 00;10;29;23
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Another issue that I see that is fundamental is that I feel that we have had a the kind of scientific worldview frame for a certain period of time and as a kind of a basic frame for people to make sense. And also kind of it has enabled us also that is agreed because there has been a basis on which you can disagree.
00;10;29;25 - 00;11;03;05
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But what I'm saying is that now we're in a situation where we have kind of different brains and the the the kind of the monopoly of the power of the scientific worldview is not there anymore. And then we have kind of frame issues that we can very easily kind of put different valuations on them, whether they are good or bad.
00;11;03;08 - 00;11;40;09
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But but I think it's the fact that there are more of that kind of sense may make an an A, for example, just coming back from from India. Yes. I had a very interesting discussion, for example, with the University of Mumbai, how they are now starting to look at how they can incorporate in their activities. They Indian knowledge systems, which are the traditional systems of those cultures.
00;11;40;12 - 00;12;12;14
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, both before that, it was something that was very kind of just brought into the Western colonial educational environment. Exactly. And now that one kind of the they want to have also that that kind of other type of looking at or knowing. And of course the same thing that what we've been working on doing a lot of work within that indigenous ways of knowing.
00;12;12;19 - 00;12;30;25
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And then how to really create a dialog there which could understand the differences. But also kind of value each other. That is a fundamental change that that there really is.
00;12;30;28 - 00;13;12;04
Louka Parry
That's so interesting. I mean, I think you've picked up a lot of things there. Definitely intergenerational collaboration as opposed to the dissemination of wisdom just from one generation to the other. Seems to be the world is now so complex that it takes multiple standpoints and perspectives like your your piece on I would call it epistemic justice. You know, how do we ensure that there are multiple ways of seeing that are valued and celebrated and in fact elevated where that's required, lest we we kind of be so stuck, so mired in a particular frame that becomes so identity oriented that we can never, frankly, evolve or we're called to change ourselves every day.
00;13;12;04 - 00;13;47;15
Louka Parry
And yet we are not. We're still so attached to the old ways of doing and being and learning and teaching that, you know, transformation is not possible in that space. Because some of my own career has, you know, been learning from and with First Nations in Australia, and I feel like I've learned such a profound amount from my experiences there as a as a leader and as a educator, especially about how to see the world, what really matters, what is education for, you know, some of these really big picture framing questions that I think if we think it's just about improving what we did yesterday.
00;13;47;18 - 00;14;08;20
Louka Parry
Now sometimes the latter might not be on the right wall and we're still trying to climb the ladder and that's great. But are we actually oriented? So yeah, I guess my I'm really curious about how you see this, because the IBI is an enormous vehicle for for learning and for and for global transformation in education. It's incredibly exciting.
00;14;08;23 - 00;14;34;02
Louka Parry
And so I wonder about, you know, how you might see the evolution of the IBI, uh, clearly leading it and with a long tradition of being innovative in its design and I would say more global citizen focused around kind of in a more agency oriented, even potentially in some other models. The traditional models say, oh, credentialing systems. How do you how do you see the steps forward?
00;14;34;04 - 00;15;18;21
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Well, we have we have kind of a made a strategy for us, which we internally, we call it more I be. And by that we mean that 55 years ago when the organization was created, there was a very strong kind of a mission and a societal context. And to the various of the first IBM programs and schools. And then it had a lot to do with, of course, the the still the aftermaths of the Second World War.
00;15;18;23 - 00;15;51;25
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, it is something that would enable that not to happen any any anymore, anywhere. But I'm kind of that this question that has really I've been asking myself that if knows I know founders would be here today, would they be kind of satisfied if we just said that? Well, we have continued doing exactly the same things that you did.
00;15;51;28 - 00;16;46;04
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Or would they say that now it's kind of your task to look what's the world you're living today and what are those challenges and how are you going to build that link between the students and those challenges? And that's exactly what we have been trying to do. Mm hmm. And and that that means, of course, kind of reforming also our programs in a way that they would be more meaningful for the students and also kind of reforming the way that we think of schooling or running the education system, which I suppose in a way is.
00;16;46;06 - 00;17;31;16
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, in a way that enables high quality learning and teaching to happen. And, and of course the some of the things that we are we are doing in those areas is, is also a work that we've been doing, listening to students. Yeah, we've been touring the, the, the world with a kind of events called Festival of Expo where we have engaged with students and created then the space, the same space for them to tell what's meaningful for them.
00;17;31;18 - 00;17;32;17
Louka Parry
Mm hmm.
00;17;32;19 - 00;18;05;28
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And it's very clear that certain things come out of identity questions very strongly. And again, I think it tells about that thing that we are in the world between times. Cause yes, in those times, identity is the one which is really kind of stressed. Mm hmm. And other things that come up are the the kind of global challenges, of course, of climate change.
00;18;05;29 - 00;18;49;20
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But not only that, but kind of loss of biodiversity, the inequalities that we're seeing inside and between nations. And so on. And the third thing that comes up is the kind of well-being, right. And more generally of students. And and those are the issues that we're trying to incorporate in our programs to to kind of understand that those challenges exist, but also then to have the our programs to be able to give also tools and solutions to cope with those challenges.
00;18;49;23 - 00;18;56;14
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah. So so so so that's that that's really is at the core of what we are doing.
00;18;56;17 - 00;19;25;15
Louka Parry
I love the I love the focus on meaning of meaning making. I mean, I think there's so much in that Olympic and clearly a theme of our conversation already is this piece on identity. You know, it's not just what do we need to know and what we need to be able to do, but who will we call to be or become that idea, you know, of being a global citizen or a change agent or someone who understands their contribution to a community or to a society as we are between these worlds.
00;19;25;16 - 00;19;47;17
Louka Parry
I mean, I'm sure you've been doing it as well. I've been following tracking kind of the developments in artificial intelligence and generative AI in particular, and I mean, it's just we're in this the middle of this renaissance explosion and, you know, this kind of a lot of concern about that explosion at the same time as there's a lot of kind of anticipation about what it might mean.
00;19;47;19 - 00;20;17;07
Louka Parry
And I think the one thing that I can't yet do is, is to be us, is to be human. And so I think we're seeing kind of a really significant transformation in the routine. This is non-routine, but actually the most powerful things are for our kind of deeper human qualities of belonging, social connectedness, emotional regulation, you know, agency as a theme embodiment, you know, the idea of the mind body connection or the extended mind research, which I think is so interesting.
00;20;17;09 - 00;20;41;25
Louka Parry
And yeah, this kind of is blowing open, I think the possibilities for for schools and education to respond. I wonder with all of that happening, my question is what's something that should not change? Because clearly there'll be evolutions of the IP and and other curriculum settings and all that is going to happen. Programs will be rewritten, they'll become more relevant, they'll become meaningful.
00;20;41;25 - 00;20;53;08
Louka Parry
They'll be using tools as opposed to, you know, not referencing them properly. What's the thing we should always hold on to in education, in the work that we do?
00;20;53;10 - 00;21;36;17
Olli Pekka Heinonen
I think that's the that's the human connection. That's the that that when we're talking about learning and we're talking about younger children enabling in their growth, that that it is it is really a deeply human kind of quality that we're capable of being next to each other and having that ability to help the other to reach important things in their lives.
00;21;36;19 - 00;22;10;13
Olli Pekka Heinonen
That's learning. And I think that is something that I am hoping that we are using a, for example, in a way that leaves more room for those moments of connecting and meeting, that it would more bring people together and kind of distance them from one another. MM I definitely kind of see that. That's something that we must very strongly hold on to that.
00;22;10;15 - 00;23;03;24
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And I think the other thing that cos again a I, it makes it very easy for us to kind of measure, for example a lot of things and to kind of kind of get big data on a lot of things. Mm hmm. I am also hoping that we don't just go along with that, that what is easy to measure if we kind of keep in mind that that kind of although learning is important, the final layer is the human development.
00;23;03;26 - 00;23;46;29
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, that in that sense, the learning is a tool for human development. Yeah. And we're so good. I kind of love the phrase that it was Albert Einstein, one of the most quoted person in the world. He also had one of one quote where he said of his time already that we humans are so good at crystallizing the means and forgetting the final endings and saying that we must not to with all this complexity and change around us.
00;23;47;02 - 00;24;08;00
Louka Parry
Beautiful reflection. I mean, to your comment about big data, I think when we think about human connection only because it's often small data, who is like he is one, he is the like Nicholls one. It's like it's very kind of human centered approach. Who are you? What? What do you love to do? What does the world need? What can you be paid for?
00;24;08;00 - 00;24;30;04
Louka Parry
You know, the Ikigai model is a beautiful other conception, you know, about human centeredness or purpose and you know, purpose, meaning passion, meaning profession being a vocation, which I think is just, you know, being able to sit next to somebody or just. And I wonder about the society you brought up the kind of shift in society. There does seem to be this just reality that everything has become.
00;24;30;04 - 00;25;06;17
Louka Parry
So we I think it's just a byproduct of user centered design or design thinking more broadly, which is let's make it this easier for the user and solve pain points. But sometimes those pain points are actually experiences that help to develop a capability. I say if the purpose of education is human flourishing through human development and learning is the main vehicle to get there, I sometimes think we we are taking too much from our young people at the experiences for them to expand and create identities that are multiple, that are complex, as opposed to just pressing a single button and everything kind of being worked out for you.
00;25;06;17 - 00;25;24;01
Louka Parry
You know, like there is something about playing in the mud or in your native Finland going out when it's -15, you know, all drugged up and playing upside as the young people say, Yeah, let's see. Do you have a reflection on kind of the societal impacts that are coming? I think at us through that lens.
00;25;24;03 - 00;26;09;18
Olli Pekka Heinonen
I think you're right that and that's that's a little bit also the challenge sometimes that when I when we're talking about wellbeing it's kind of thought as a synonym to the kind of wellness. And I, I think that's that's a dangerous kind of comparison in that sense. That kind of wellbeing doesn't mean that you're all kind of always being happy and there are no problems in life, but that's all kind of sunshine, cause that's, that's not where we're kind of where we need that kind of moments.
00;26;09;20 - 00;26;42;14
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But that's not what life is about. Yes. And then and kind of I think the really the the task of an educator to be able to understand that whole child or student in a way that that kind of educator is capable of seeing that where what are the things where there would be a kind of challenge for that.
00;26;42;17 - 00;27;20;01
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah well for that person but no, not so much challenge that it would kind of he or she would lost interest because it's not reachable. Yes. It's that very, very kind of old and basic idea that we have to keep in mind. And it's the it's the same thing on a societal level that kind of learn learning happens when you enter the territory of the unknown.
00;27;20;03 - 00;28;11;01
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But if you just stay in the territory of the no yeah reason then it learning. Yeah. And for that reason kind of there is a tendency in in our societies to kind of hold out. I say that let's let's stay here let's let's not kind of do things in a new way. And I think that what really struck me was that research by the Bath University, which said that of 15 to 25 year old young people, over 75% of 10,000 people said that future is a scary place for them.
00;28;11;03 - 00;28;43;28
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, and and that's kind of the area. And then you really have to think deeply about what have we done in order to be resolved. Mm. And there was also a number of those same students who said, who had the belief that the world will come to an end during their lifetime. Wow. And how do you, how do you kind of live a life with that kind of a belief though.
00;28;43;28 - 00;29;29;03
Olli Pekka Heinonen
So I think there is, there is some kind of heavy lifting for us to do to make a better job in kind of may have that that kind of say to growing and developing as a human. But also in a way that includes that idea of the agency, includes that idea towards action or making a better world. And I, I kind of I see that as a as a big question for for all education systems.
00;29;29;08 - 00;29;51;18
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And I think we come back to the question of the of the kind of big changes and transformation. What are the two things that should be brought closer together? I think the action is the centerpiece home burner around the world. Come, then, come together.
00;29;51;21 - 00;30;29;16
Louka Parry
I think that's beautifully put on a speaker. My reflection is that we're not in a knowledge economy at all. We're in a creation economy. So it's applied knowledge and augmented with technologies for the pursuit of human progress and equity and I this piece on hope, I mean, you think about the nihilism that you've just spoken about from the data in our young people of what's the point or the future is a scary place as opposed to what childhood ought to be, which is look at the possibility ahead for me to act to be a contributor.
00;30;29;19 - 00;31;02;14
Louka Parry
Cornel West says this beautifully. It's not about having hope. It's about being hope. It's internalizing that orientation such that we you can, you know, see the what's possible, see what's best, and then actually work against the really significant challenges to get us there. The other the other part I heard from you was really interesting is this like the challenge that we've removed from our well, you know, I feel like we've been focusing on solving struggle and not solving suffering.
00;31;02;16 - 00;31;23;01
Louka Parry
And it's I make a distinction clearly, you know, we're suffering is often more optional than struggle. Struggle is how we expand and learn. And yet now it's like, you know, used to go out and have to run a cross-country race. So you had to kind of step through the model, build a tent or whatever the case might be, or even just read a novel cover to cover, you know.
00;31;23;01 - 00;31;48;08
Louka Parry
And now I think we are all being called to do that less and less because someone has synthesized I synthesized the novel for you into five dot points. Yeah. And I am curious about where this takes us. I'll be back to, you know, I'm a hopeful kind of guy, but I do wonder about. Mm hmm. I don't know if some of these developments are going to help us expand because we need the productive struggle always at the core of our our striving, our expansion.
00;31;48;10 - 00;31;52;15
Louka Parry
It's the suffering that we should we should try to solve for as much as possible.
00;31;52;15 - 00;32;11;00
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And I think those two points are connected also in a way that both we we have so many kind of dystopias that we are creating. But where are the kind of utopias, where where are the kind of the policy to.
00;32;11;03 - 00;32;11;24
Louka Parry
Yes.
00;32;11;26 - 00;32;47;14
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Imagine the kind of futures that where we would like to live. Yeah, that would the better ones. Course you first. You have to have that and then it's the question that, okay, how do we build that road there and then then we're into something. Yes. That after that it's kind of where we have something to work on. We have something to come together with.
00;32;47;14 - 00;33;00;28
Olli Pekka Heinonen
We have something to kind of look forward to. And and that's that's something that is right now we're not walking on the bright side of the street.
00;33;01;01 - 00;33;26;24
Louka Parry
In a free put. And I think all we need to do is walk across the street, walking on the parts of I think that's such a powerful piece around, you know, we are, you know, Hollywood loves dystopian futures. You know, like everything we see is about the kind of cataclysm end of the world or its post-apocalypse. And it seems to almost be kind of a I don't know why, but a real desire to want to look towards that.
00;33;26;24 - 00;33;55;12
Louka Parry
But you'll you know, the idea of creating utopian futures that we can then look at what's the pathway forward, how the education systems play a role. I mean, I need to ask this question, Rebecca, because some people are utopian education systems, okay? Oh, Finland, it's the utopia. You're the happiest country in the world. It's freezing cold. Most of the I, I do want you to reflect on that as someone that has spent most of your, you know, contributing life in that space.
00;33;55;12 - 00;34;13;11
Louka Parry
You know, what is it about? Clearly, it's not a utopia, but there are some elements that you got so right. I'd love for you just to reflect on that. Not that it's your view now. More global space, but what are your lessons from from that, that kind of chapter?
00;34;13;13 - 00;35;05;27
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Well, I think one thing is that there are kind of several things. But one one thing is that there is this this kind of thing connected to the identity of Finland being an independent nation, both because education was seen as a means to reach national identity and national independence post. It was a small country and then it was seen that the only way really to have that national identity was to raise the knowledge and awareness of the whole population of our culture.
00;35;05;28 - 00;35;44;06
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Our language is that that that kind of carries on. It's it's in the DNA of the of the nation. The other one is that there is a strong, strong sense of the kind of a whole of person development that that and it it kind of goes throughout the life of a person that that it's always seen as a kind of a possibility to to develop as a whole.
00;35;44;09 - 00;36;13;16
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And that's I would say that that has had a very strong impact. And of course, maybe the third one, which is connected to the first one, is that now having kind of travel around the world, seeing different cultures, different kind of values, systems which all have their good parts, but in Finland, the kind of equality and effort to they're very strong there.
00;36;13;18 - 00;36;52;07
Olli Pekka Heinonen
It's really something that Finnish people feel strongly about. And I think the education of the kind of or how to build the education system so that it really makes sure that everybody has those same possibilities and not only the same kind of possibilities, but also that the needs of different individuals are taken into consideration. So so I think those are the elements.
00;36;52;07 - 00;36;57;20
Olli Pekka Heinonen
That's why it's being a well functioning education system.
00;36;57;22 - 00;37;35;21
Louka Parry
Yeah, I love the piece around. Again, another themes of conversation, identity, you know, education as a means for national identity, for the expression of self, of an entity. And I think that's why at least from the outside, you see long term decision making kind of beyond any political cycle. You know, I think in Australia, in the US and other parts UK, so, you know, you see these kind of big swings in education policy from one side to the other and then we get back to basics, then we go progressive and you know, and it seems like such an enormous waste of, of time in some some side sometimes because we've forgotten there longer arc that
00;37;35;26 - 00;38;02;02
Louka Parry
you know it's it's the quality of an education system that will determine the prosperity of a country. I think that's a an unarguable point. You know, the education is really the key foundational stone for not just national prosperity, but maybe even for survivability. You know, if we to solve for quality education, I think the other ones will then be properly attended to, you know, because then we can make better decisions.
00;38;02;02 - 00;38;06;23
Louka Parry
We can have that compassion orientation, we can understand our role.
00;38;06;25 - 00;38;39;20
Olli Pekka Heinonen
But I think that's that's kind of something that I'm seeing that is getting worse around the globe. The question of of the kind of polarized polarization in the discussions, it has kind of reached the classroom to. And the outcome is exactly what you say, that you go from kind of one end of the pendulum to the other one after elections.
00;38;39;22 - 00;39;12;01
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah. And that kind of it means that you can have any coherent and consistent education policy about that. At the end. It's the teachers who lose their trust, all of kind of new strategies is a new one. Yeah, I'm not properly implemented, but kind of left half way. And the teachers are just saying let's wait, let's not do anything.
00;39;12;01 - 00;39;35;14
Olli Pekka Heinonen
There will be a new coming pretty soon. So we'll get over this one too. And that's such the harmful thing to happen. Of course, there would be some very valuable decisions to be made. Also in national education policy, and now it's kind of becoming kind of frozen.
00;39;35;16 - 00;40;03;17
Louka Parry
Many names like, you know, there's that that, you know, quote, hands. You know, it's like, you know, every decision is either going to can humanize or dehumanize. And it's idea like does assistant humanize the humans within it and then they inform back into the system or is that a dehumanization which is often what the standardization of gender I think is some somewhat led to the fact I could speak here for a very long time.
00;40;03;17 - 00;40;46;03
Louka Parry
You've got so much knowledge. I have two final questions for you then. Ultimately, if we're sitting down as I hope we are, and let's say ten years time or 12 years time, let's say it's the year 2035, you know, we have new sustainable development goals, which will probably be called the regenerative impact something. And then but we having a conversation about education, what do you what do you hope is the reality that we're talking about when we think about the shifts that have occurred over, 12 years of really significant changes in society and in potentially schooling?
00;40;46;05 - 00;41;27;12
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah, well, I hope that we have we have been able to all work. The second challenge of education globally, the first challenge that we pretty much actually already tackled before the COVID, that was the getting to the children of the world. The school poster was a huge positive development there. We took a couple steps back with COVID, but I think we can we can kind of come back to a better situation.
00;41;27;12 - 00;42;17;04
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Now, the second challenge that I want us to do as well also is the challenge of learning and understanding the quality, but how important quality of learning is and how good and how strongly it's connected also to the quality of teaching happening in schools. And to that extent, I do hope that we're capable of of creating the tools to increase the number of qualified teachers in the world to meet the needs of the of the future generations and the existing generations.
00;42;17;06 - 00;42;55;25
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Of course, that would make a huge difference. Yeah, that goal with the with the Sustainable Development Goals for we are doing we're creating kind of, kind of enabling constraints for be successful with the other ones. And so so I see that, that as a, as a kind of a central central point. And then I hope truly course there's a, there's a we've never had so powerful technology in our hands.
00;42;56;01 - 00;43;36;18
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Yeah. That we could be wise to use it in a way that enables us to be more human, that enables us to use our individual strengths and to utilize each other's strengths in order to kind of create collective wisdom in our societies. And those are not kind of those original. We have it all. So it's it's really the question that are we ready to commit ourselves to it?
00;43;36;18 - 00;43;50;05
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Are we ready to create new ways of sense making from different kind of perspectives, context to make it happen?
00;43;50;07 - 00;44;23;19
Louka Parry
Yeah, the has put so beautifully the thanks. I'll take a final question. What's your take home message for anyone listening to this and our listening audience are largely educators, parents, some innovators, policymakers, designers. What would you say to them as someone who's dedicated, you know, a large chunk of your life to public service, but in particular to the pursuit of education and learning quality, in particular through your leadership roles?
00;44;23;22 - 00;45;00;04
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Well, I would say that there cannot be a better place and a better time to be an educator than the one that we're living right now. That kind of world in recent times that it's a challenging area are challenging it, definitely. But thinking about meaningful work, it's now and it's this is the time for us to do our best.
00;45;00;07 - 00;45;45;18
Olli Pekka Heinonen
And I don't think that any educator has the difficulty to go to work every day knowing the fact that about what a difference it could make and course to individuals, but not only the individuals that we are talking about, the way that the societies are exploring themselves and transforming themselves and I think that that kind of thinking that comes so strongly with kind of John do it thinking, I think we're looking for a new and and I see a lot of strength in it beautiful.
00;45;45;20 - 00;46;08;15
Louka Parry
Yeah it is I sometimes reflect it's not just innovation that we need only back. It's remembering and remembering what really matters, what's most meaningful for us as humans, as societies, as communities. Thank you for. Taking us on this beautiful journey of remembering and meaning meaningful conversation. It's been a delight to reconnect with you.
00;46;08;17 - 00;46;11;26
Olli Pekka Heinonen
Likewise. Likewise. Let's keep in touch.
00;46;11;29 - 00;46;12;19
Louka Parry
Absolutely.