Learning Economy: John Goodwin & Chris Purifoy
What do the innovative architects of block-chain education sound like? How might they imagine channels that shatter the “trickle-down” model of success by delivering high-tech and advantageous tools of education and employment directly to all?
In this Third episode of Education Transformed, Louka speaks with John Goodwin and Chris Purifoy.
LEF’s mission to bring quality skills and equal opportunity to every human on Earth, using open standards and web3 technologies.
https://www.learningeconomy.io/
John Goodwin, is Executive Chairman of the Board of Directors. Prior to joining LEF, Goodwin spent a decade working in the LEGO ecosystem, first as EVP and CFO of The LEGO Group then later as CEO of LEGO Foundation.
Chris Purifoy, CEO of Learning Economy, about their ambitious global goal—to increase the impact of investment in humans, solve equity gaps, and empower learners and employees with better access to their data.
He is a delegate for the UN’s Blockchain for Impact and the U.S. Department of Education’s Blockchain Action Network. Chris is a digital architect, serial entrepreneur, author, and futurist. He speaks in global forums about AI, blockchain, and the future of education and work. Chris loves simplifying really complex, difficult problems and building strong tribes.
Chris strongly recommends checking out learncard.com !
HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FURTHER LISTENING: https://youtu.be/3qWUA4k32Rw
TRANSCRIPT [AUTO-GENERATED] BELOW:
00:00:06:09 - 00:00:29:12
LOUKA PARRY
Hello friends, and welcome to the Lending Future podcast. I'm your host, Louka Parry, and thanks again for joining us for these conversations about education transformed. What might we do together? What will it take and what potential might we tap into in our efforts to really shift the experience for learners, educators and communities across the globe? I'm very excited about our conversation today.
00:00:29:12 - 00:00:50:01
LOUKA PARRY
We're speaking with two incredible thinkers and the work that they do at the Learning Economy Foundation. John Goodwin, who is the executive chairman of the Board of Directors. And prior to joining LCF, he spent a decade working in the Lego ecosystem, first as an and the executive vice president, CFO of the Lego Group, and then later as the CEO of the Lego Foundation.
00:00:50:01 - 00:01:05:13
LOUKA PARRY
We also have Chris Purifoy, who is the CEO and co-founder of the Learning Economy Foundation, and he is a digital architect, a serial entrepreneur, an author and a futurist. It's wonderful to have you both on this podcast today, gentlemen.
00:01:06:12 - 00:01:07:05
JOHN GOODWIN
Great to be here.
00:01:08:03 - 00:01:09:01
CHRIS PURIFOY
Yeah. Thank you.
00:01:09:09 - 00:01:32:10
LOUKA PARRY
So the first question really is just give us a sense of the mission and the scope of Learning Economy Foundation. You know, it's obviously it's about bringing quality skills and equal opportunity by using open standards and with through technologies. But for people that haven't heard of the work you're doing, just give us a high level of, you know, what is the movement that you're both building at this point in time?
00:01:32:10 - 00:01:36:18
LOUKA PARRY
And in our effort to transform education?
00:01:38:00 - 00:02:17:07
JOHN GOODWIN
Well, the arc of the economy, the sexy tech stuff. So I'll start with the high level conceptual approach. And it's interesting that we're called the Learning Economy Foundation. We're not a foundation in the context of the formal organization that I used to lead that donates finance into different change activities effectively, what we're donating is technology that will enable the removal of inequities that exist within employment and education.
00:02:17:07 - 00:02:47:01
JOHN GOODWIN
And we have firm belief is that trickle down technologies don't work. What they do is disproportionately advantage those that are already in advantaged positions. So whilst there's often a wonderful intentionality when the tech gets developed around all this is going to be fantastic. It's going to provide ways in which those that are underserved are going to be able to get access to all of the rhetoric that was behind the Moog movement.
00:02:47:04 - 00:03:24:07
JOHN GOODWIN
Yeah, you know, it just it doesn't manifest itself against those that are really disadvantaged by the current system unless we believe unless you truly intentional about the design approach and you really think through where are the deficiencies and how do we design the next iteration to start addressing those as opposed to putting out some new sexy technology into the existing infrastructure and then assuming that it will find its way down to to those that need it most.
00:03:24:20 - 00:03:48:10
JOHN GOODWIN
So that's, I think, a fairly unique approach that we are adopting. And Chris and the team have very much come at it from the architecture frameworks as a starting point before we then step into the application area. But that's a point where I throw it over to Chris to give his views on it.
00:03:48:15 - 00:03:51:12
LOUKA PARRY
Wonderful. John Yeah. Chris What do you mean?
00:03:51:17 - 00:04:26:19
CHRIS PURIFOY
Which I think is right. I mean we, we've been around for several years and I think what we do is we translate, you know, really and that's in many ways, right? We translate, you know, technologies both from, you know, we spent the first few years building social infrastructure, right? Let's build communities, let's build movements, let's help to educate people on what the future can look like and how we can use some of these, you know, really radical new technologies to promote equity mobility in privacy, individual agency, things like this.
00:04:26:19 - 00:04:49:21
CHRIS PURIFOY
Like how can we really push the dial to make the world a better place? I mean, and not just domestically, but around the world, like you know, education is a you know, it's it's so fundamental to solving so many other really important challenges in the world. And so we we find ourselves squarely in the space of trying to stand up a new space for us to educate everyone on Earth.
00:04:49:21 - 00:05:16:00
CHRIS PURIFOY
I mean, we like to envision a world where everyone has access to quality education and an agency, right? Actions, opportunities and groceries. Spent a long time again working in the social side of things like how do we build the communities around it? How do we lead the change in terms of thought leadership? But, you know, quickly we began to see that if we're really going to make the change, we have to get in there and kind of roll our sleeves up and do some of the work ourselves.
00:05:16:00 - 00:05:35:00
CHRIS PURIFOY
And so after kind of, you know, many years of arduous work in the standards, work in the standards communities kind of popping into develop really technical standards for how this could work. So we can do bottom down and top up approaches. You know, we started just really building the work ourselves, you know, building the change ourselves and and so on.
00:05:35:22 - 00:05:58:23
CHRIS PURIFOY
So we find ourselves, you know, we like to talk about the Internet of Education as kind of a a movement or an idea around how we can rethink the world where the learners at the center, right, where the employees at the center, where where you know, sovereignty as a learner becomes an incentive to solve all the big challenges.
00:05:58:23 - 00:06:20:09
CHRIS PURIFOY
And so and so technologies to empower that. You know, there are many the Internet of education is a multilayered ecosystem. But, you know, for us, we really are starting where I think, you know, it's like if you're going to build a new infrastructure, great, that doesn't come easy. You know, it's a new global infrastructure isn't something you don't just build an app.
00:06:20:09 - 00:06:50:16
CHRIS PURIFOY
It's not a one off type of thing. It requires multi layers of technology and, you know, policy and thought and behavior change. And so, you know, when you when you think holistically about that, you know, we think that digital wallets are kind of squarely at the start. You now and we have had the very you know, we're very honored to have been able to support, you know, over 100 pilots in this work.
00:06:50:17 - 00:07:10:03
CHRIS PURIFOY
Right. So with all the greats in the world and we've been able to see the kind of change that it can bring. But we're really excited to be moving into a new stage, you know, a new horizon, where, you know, we can bring this type of technology to scale to, you know, into a production environment to really start to do some incredible things.
00:07:10:03 - 00:07:31:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
I mean, digital wallets are at the beginning because they allow learners to, you know, store and own their credentials. You know, a friend of ours named Dante yesterday at the Global Climate Summit was speaking about the difference between Web one, Web two and Web three. You know, and in Web one, you know, you can access information from anywhere on Earth, but you can only read it, you know, fine.
00:07:32:01 - 00:08:05:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
And in Web two, you can access the information, you can read and you can write. So everybody became a publisher and a creator. And in Web three, which is really where we like to think about the future of education, you can read and you can write and then you can own it, right? And so the ownership aspect really becomes a way to solve really some of the big challenges, not only in education and employment, like, you know, the skills gap, the mobility gap, the equity gap, but also some of the big challenges with Web two, you know, the exploitation of information of of individuals where users become the product.
00:08:05:15 - 00:08:32:10
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, like this is really a way for us to inverse this and to give the data ownership back to the individual. And in doing so, the learner then can travel from cradle to grave carrying their lifelong learning journey with them on their device, you know, so they can, you know, and in doing so really that word equity becomes something that's not just nebulous, it's not this idea that educators like to talk about, you know, it becomes something really tangible.
00:08:32:10 - 00:08:49:09
CHRIS PURIFOY
You can collect and earn skills and achievements and, you know, and your your experiences become real assets, right? That we can build, you know, you get liquidity out of it. You know, I mean, this is like a whole market where you can quantify the value of a home. You can get liquidity out of it and, you know, equity out of it.
00:08:49:09 - 00:08:58:00
CHRIS PURIFOY
You can build a market on top. And I think that's the promise of a learning economy or a silicon, right, where skills become real assets that individuals can carry with them.
00:08:59:00 - 00:09:18:24
LOUKA PARRY
Because that's fantastic. Some of the steps and I'd say almost the componentry that you're speaking to, I'd love us to go to the end of this of this road, you know, what is it if let's say during a conversation today, the child born in Nashville, you know, they're they're leaving what we now consider, you know, formal high school education in 2040.
00:09:19:13 - 00:09:49:14
LOUKA PARRY
And so if your efforts as the Learning Economy Foundation and the movement around that are successful, what kind of world, what kind of transition do they have as a 17, 18 year old stepping into the workplace, if that's even how we're framing things by 2040, take us into the kind of the long term vision for this work, and then I'd love us to discuss some of the tangible steps that you're building to get us there.
00:09:49:14 - 00:10:28:12
JOHN GOODWIN
From my perspective, what we're looking to do is Chris mentioned agency, but within within that as well, there's an ability to recognize that skill development occurs in a multitude of environments and that every learner is unique within that context. So we have the ability to build ourselves up through the way that we're naturally wired as opposed to everyone being forced through the same pipe.
00:10:28:23 - 00:11:17:22
JOHN GOODWIN
Mhm. And some fit really nicely in that pipe and as a consequence disproportionately benefit out of that. But so many fall by the wayside and as a consequence to that process, get mentally so sorted into a particular framing of what they can achieve in the world. So what we're looking to do is truly open up the learning lens so that an individual that learns pretty well in a digital environment can thrive as well as an individual that learns in the classroom environment versus those that also learn in a more naturally unstructured environment.
00:11:18:09 - 00:11:45:06
JOHN GOODWIN
It's not a formal facilitation is bad, it's just that it's part of the tool box as opposed to the tool. So what we have as a consequence of that is the ability to get everybody to have a real thirst for learning such that the concept of lifelong learning truly can be embraced by everybody, not just by those that really liked school.
00:11:45:13 - 00:12:11:15
JOHN GOODWIN
So therefore, they like they love the whole concept of learning. Yeah, but all of us find the natural ways in which we develop and as a consequence of that, realize that we have amazing untapped potential and that that can get captured through the digital wallet process in a way that we then have utility for the skills that we're able to develop rather than already being predefined.
00:12:11:15 - 00:12:36:06
JOHN GOODWIN
This is what you have to learn by this day, by this method. And if you don't conform to that, then well, you need to be sidelined into a different type of trajectory. Yeah, we want to do away with all of that and create a truly egalitarian type of approach where everybody gets the opportunity to to participate with the way in which they're wired.
00:12:36:06 - 00:12:45:12
JOHN GOODWIN
And I know Chris can build on this because he's, he's like not a natural learner. So I'm certainly right from a, from a position of passion.
00:12:45:22 - 00:12:46:16
LOUKA PARRY
Absolutely.
00:12:47:05 - 00:12:48:14
CHRIS PURIFOY
Chris Yeah, you know, Yeah.
00:12:48:21 - 00:12:49:03
LOUKA PARRY
Yeah.
00:12:49:06 - 00:12:49:19
CHRIS PURIFOY
Please, please.
00:12:50:05 - 00:13:08:12
LOUKA PARRY
I was just going to ask, just kind of wave some things that I want you to respond to in that case. John That's so beautifully put. And I feel like even the way we talk about formal non-formal and informal learning as if they're separate and we separate them, I think is partially the issue. I think the whole point is absolutely all we're learning in a formal start now, we're in an informal structure.
00:13:08:20 - 00:13:31:00
LOUKA PARRY
And I mean, that kind of is the hope from and that's that's kind of the opportunities. See, when you speak to utility, which Chris, I'm sure you can build on, you know, is this idea that actually everything should be picked up in this web of experiences and capabilities as opposed to somehow valuing some skill sets and devaluing others, which seems completely nonsensical if we're thinking about true human growth and, you know, human investment.
00:13:31:00 - 00:13:33:18
LOUKA PARRY
Chris, what you want to build on for this 2040, you know?
00:13:34:08 - 00:13:55:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, I think everything John is saying and everything you're saying is exactly right. And, you know, when I think about the future, you know, I like to think about it from a, you know, as an individual, like you said, an individual learner who I love to learn. I'm always learning. Right? But I want to wasn't you know, I wasn't as interested in those types of things.
00:13:55:15 - 00:14:02:16
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, I was creative. I like to build things and I like to use my hands, you know?
00:14:02:16 - 00:14:02:22
LOUKA PARRY
Mm hmm.
00:14:03:17 - 00:14:31:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
Yeah. And, you know, so there was always a space for me where I felt out-of-place, right? I felt as though in some ways I didn't I wasn't a good student. I didn't really belong in that. And and so to that point of, like, threading all of those needles, formal, informal, you know, online versus in the classroom, you know, gain base learning through play, you know, social emotional learning versus STEM like, you know, the truth is, is all of it is just learning.
00:14:31:22 - 00:14:49:19
CHRIS PURIFOY
Right. And I learned a lot also from my partner and I learned a lot from my family and I learned through daily activities. And you know what I want to see is I want to see a future where, you know, getting a digital wallet is step one. Let's let's find a way to credential for everything. Let's find a way to collect it, Understand the lifelong learning process.
00:14:50:13 - 00:15:07:16
CHRIS PURIFOY
But what I want to be able to do in 2040, 2050 is I want every human on earth to also have a right for their career, for their learning, for their life. And I want all of those to thread together in a really simple, beautiful way that's really seamless, that understands me and my goals that I can tune and then I can retune.
00:15:07:16 - 00:15:28:11
CHRIS PURIFOY
That helps me see like, Oh, you want to be a nurse? Great. You should learn ratios, right? You should. Here's a local workshop you can go to. Here is, you know, a scholarship. You can go to school. Here's some online learning you can do. Here's a video, you know and and you know, another thing that I want, you know, not only do I want people to be able to navigate and and to be the drivers of their education.
00:15:28:11 - 00:15:46:08
CHRIS PURIFOY
So education doesn't just happen to you, right? Yeah. So you actually are empowered. You know, like when I graduated high school, I didn't know what I was capable of. And I went to college. I changed majors over and over. I just didn't know what I didn't know. And and not only do I want them to be able to direct it, but I want them to have confidence that they have their own superpowers.
00:15:46:08 - 00:16:03:24
CHRIS PURIFOY
They have their own skills. You know, there's this you know, people talk about like low skilled workers, you know, and it's like, man, I work on a computer. They're out there like building things. These are things like low skills, high skills, Like I want people to be empowered and to feel confident about the types of things that they do about the skills that they have.
00:16:03:24 - 00:16:30:24
CHRIS PURIFOY
Right. In a way that can actually, you know, help them keep going. Right. How many how many people quit before they reach their full potential just because they didn't believe that they could do it? Right. And what if this technology could be a feedback loop for them so they can understand the skills, the earning, understand the, you know, the longevity of those skills and where it could lead them.
00:16:31:07 - 00:16:58:24
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, and I also in 2040, I hope there's a day where people who are have all these skills that the world wouldn't like can actually come in. And honestly, as it would. What were you doing? Well, I've been drug dealing. I've been doing. That's great. Well, you understand logistics, You understand? Come back into the system. You know, like I want people to be able to be empowered to to live straight up with the skills that they have in a way that is empowering and reaches their full potential and in a way that doesn't require them to spend $1,000,000 to do it or get lost.
00:16:58:24 - 00:17:15:06
CHRIS PURIFOY
The system, you know, because the truth is, is you can have a Harvard level education online right now if you just knew where to look. But but we need to be able to create signals that this has value and that this matters. So yeah, and I you know, and if you want to fast forward even further, I also want to go get paid for learning, right?
00:17:15:06 - 00:17:30:24
CHRIS PURIFOY
I mean, if you want to go all the way to the 20, 40, 2050, you know, I mean, why are people not getting paid for the dollar labor, you know, I mean, like that that is needed, you know, I mean, like if you're a if you're a human capital that's like a government, you know, you need to know what's happening on this lifelong journey.
00:17:30:24 - 00:17:48:11
CHRIS PURIFOY
And the problem is when a person leaves a school or a university or when a job, they disappear, you know, the advantage and you don't know what happened to them, you know, And because of that, we can't track and we can't understand like, did they go on to do great things? Did they go on to earn skills and get jobs?
00:17:48:20 - 00:18:07:00
CHRIS PURIFOY
And we also don't want to track them. That's a bad word because because that's not good. But what if instead we can have sovereignty in our data and our data can be shared anonymously in aggregate, and that that it could be used to optimize everything, Like how do we create better outcomes for ninth graders in algebra? You know, in low income settings?
00:18:07:09 - 00:18:23:13
CHRIS PURIFOY
Here's how to do it. Look at the data and and actually get paid for my dad. And you know and if you're a refugee to find yourself in a foreign land displaced, you should be able to get paid to learn local languages and to train, you know, for local jobs. And, you know, you should be empowered as soon as you arrive.
00:18:23:13 - 00:18:26:00
CHRIS PURIFOY
And I believe that's a future that's possible. MM.
00:18:26:04 - 00:18:47:16
JOHN GOODWIN
And in the loop review, allow me just to build on when Chris raised that and that is the, the ability to have attribution of development, all the challenges that exist within that formal education structures is the fact that we're, we find it really difficult to be able to determine who's effective and who's not, what's effective and what's not.
00:18:47:18 - 00:19:22:07
JOHN GOODWIN
Yes, because the argument is always well, so many other factors are involved here. What's the socioeconomic background of the child? What happened when they left that particular learning institution? And, you know, there's a myriad of other components? Well, we have the ability to do with it is to run it through the the the nature of the data capture is we can provide connectivity between an individual's journey and what they went on to do and what happened earlier on in their life and their learning development.
00:19:23:00 - 00:19:54:06
JOHN GOODWIN
And then that can be aggregated, amongst others, to have similar sort of learning approaches and to criticize point in terms of the GPS, those that are interested in navigating to that point, they can look at in a really granular way the experiences of others and draw from that into their own learning journey. And it just will, I think, really unlock a lot of the challenges that we have in meaningful education to process at the moment.
00:19:55:05 - 00:20:16:01
LOUKA PARRY
So John puts it beautifully. I this idea of like what works is always an incomplete questions, what works where when, for whom, under what conditions. And so this piece of really trying to understand with a higher level of fidelity some of those questions and the answers to them and then be able to use that to make more strategic investments.
00:20:16:01 - 00:20:51:12
LOUKA PARRY
I mean, I think governments always try to incentivize different skill sets, but of course this seems to be such a lag and the it seems to be quite a difficult thing to incentivize financially, you know, particularly within the models we have. So my second to last question is when we talk about the skills required and John, I know you do your work at LEGO, you've got quite a large background in this in particular, you know, what kind of skills are the ones that we should be paying attention to Because clearly we across the education ecosystem are seeing this shift away from kind of knowledge towards capabilities and the social and the emotional dimensions of learning,
00:20:51:12 - 00:21:11:05
LOUKA PARRY
you know, collective problem solving, you know, critical thinking, you know, some of these aspects that are always seemingly at the top of the the WEF and the Institute for the Future skill lists every year. You know, so when we talk about the skills required now, you know, some of these kind of steps as we're trying to transform the education systems that we have, what would your response to be?
00:21:11:05 - 00:21:18:21
LOUKA PARRY
What do you think those skill sets are in terms of what we should pay most attention to? What's most valuable is in another way perhaps of asking this question.
00:21:20:13 - 00:21:52:17
JOHN GOODWIN
Yeah, I mean, my personal view on this is that we should start really from a foundational point of view and then enable the learner to then determine the knowledge application that they want to transfer that foundational skills into. And that requires us to fundamentally shifts down mindset around how we want to approach early learning because so much new is almost an accelerate into subject matters of specialization.
00:21:52:24 - 00:22:23:23
JOHN GOODWIN
Yes. And through that that that acceleration, what we do is we block out the open ended skill development, learning in things like critical thinking and problem solving and collaboration and creativity is those formula a part of the knowledge base accumulation? However, we haven't nurtured our own abilities to understand how is it to move a five year old along the creativity scale?
00:22:24:05 - 00:22:57:18
JOHN GOODWIN
There's good work that is being done now in it, but we're still at a fledgling stage. But that's why I'm so excited about the the insertion of this technology, because it changes the nature of how we measure a particular learner, because it can be so wide in terms of what gets captured into the wallet rather than a quantitative test that was done under examination conditions in a certain point in time.
00:22:57:18 - 00:23:22:11
JOHN GOODWIN
Instead, it provides the continuum of learning and more of the sort of experiences that we all have in the workplace. You know, I often make the comment that in my 40 years of employment, I've never once been assessed on the basis of a three hour examination at the end of the year, and yet leading up to employment, that seemed to be the only basis for that.
00:23:23:04 - 00:23:39:15
JOHN GOODWIN
So we do have methodologies in which we can do peer to peer review and 360 reviews. So applying that in different contexts and using the wallets I think would be a great way in which we can unlock this skills. Focus earlier on if people's learning journeys.
00:23:40:00 - 00:23:57:24
LOUKA PARRY
John I often reflect with the leaders and educators with whom I work the often so often, but what we call resourcefulness, uh, resourcefulness in the workplace we call cheating in our school systems. It's the little we call.
00:23:57:24 - 00:24:01:17
JOHN GOODWIN
Yeah, well, collaboration. Yeah, we call collaboration plagiarism.
00:24:01:17 - 00:24:32:16
LOUKA PARRY
Oh, don't ask the question. Yeah, precisely. I'm really just struck about this idea that learning really is our superpower. Like, it sounds silly, but bound for some reason, this spark that we are all born with can just become so, so dampened by the way we organize the learning process, i.e. the formal schooling. And you know, this idea that for so many young people they leave school with an eye, with a sense of what they're not good at, as opposed to what they're truly, you know, possible what might be possible for them in their lives.
00:24:32:16 - 00:24:54:11
LOUKA PARRY
And I think this is why your work at the Learning Economy Foundation, you know that I continue to learn alongside Sovereignty Agency what's true agency. How do we actually do that when we need an infrastructure like Chris, as you would often, you know, talk about, we can't just have the conversation. There needs to be a tangible substrate upon which we can develop the mobility and the sovereignty of data.
00:24:55:06 - 00:24:59:04
LOUKA PARRY
What's your reflection here, Chris, around skills around that, that kind of next steps that we need?
00:25:00:15 - 00:25:15:22
CHRIS PURIFOY
Well, you know, I don't know. I you know, there's this concept that, you know, you can even kind of hear a threat of it in this chat where there's sometimes it leans into this idea of like, we need to do away with the traditional system and we need a new system. And I want to understand the the kind of idea, right?
00:25:15:22 - 00:25:30:21
CHRIS PURIFOY
Because it always, you know, you look at it all and you come through the system and you're like, it's not working. And everybody kind of feels it's not working. So maybe we need something new. And I do think we need something new. But but I also want to just speak up for the teachers and the judicial system that they're trying.
00:25:30:21 - 00:25:47:09
CHRIS PURIFOY
And and to be honest, it's not even the system's fault. You know, the system perpetuates the system that perpetuates the system. And and, you know, the truth is we don't really need a new system. We just need reformation, Right? We just need new tools. We need new ways of doing things inside of the system, you know, because I mean, think about it.
00:25:47:10 - 00:26:25:22
CHRIS PURIFOY
If, you know, if I was in if I were at all the same schools that I went to and I went through public schools and, you know, I went to, you know, universities and such, and I know that my journey is a bit of a, you know, a privileged one. And everyone doesn't have the same journey. But regardless of whether you have a privileged journey or you find yourself, you know, in a situation where you don't have access, you don't have the same type of equity as everyone else, you know, everyone, regardless, should have the same ability to understand the skills that they have to find out what they are, to find pathways to learn
00:26:25:22 - 00:26:45:04
CHRIS PURIFOY
and to grow those skills, whether it's in traditional and informal, all or nontraditional doesn't matter, right? At the end of the day, the fact that we can rise, right, whether we have to do it by own bootstraps or whether we get given to it on a silver platter, the fact that we can rise and that we can can learn, and that really is a superpower.
00:26:45:04 - 00:27:09:04
CHRIS PURIFOY
And, you know, for me, like I want to know whenever I'm going through school and I complete a course, I want to know the skills that I earned. Right. And that's something that can be done. That's a reaffirmation we can do to the traditional systems that kind of doubt exists out there that just needs to be applied. It's innovation that we need, you know, procurement officers, that we need providers, and we need people who are running these districts to be like, let's do some new things because that's what we really need.
00:27:09:04 - 00:27:32:21
CHRIS PURIFOY
We need someone to be excited about doing new things. And in doing so, you can know the skills along the way. Let's give the learners digital wallets so they can be empowered. Let's give the learners, you know, pathway tools so they can map their pathways and and let's and let's do that, whether it's in a traditional system or a nontraditional system where someone is just informally picking up, you know, going to a library and getting a computer, it shouldn't matter.
00:27:32:21 - 00:27:50:19
CHRIS PURIFOY
The point is that everyone should be able to access the skills they are and the skills that really matter what the skills are. And what matters is that they're the skills that are are that you're passionate about. It's the skills that you care about and it's the skills that you can bring to the world, because we need all sorts right there isn't one is better than the other.
00:27:50:19 - 00:28:11:10
CHRIS PURIFOY
We don't just need a bunch of doctors, you know, we need poets and we need mountain climbers and we need you know, we need people to do all sorts of interesting things and and it shouldn't just be pathways towards learning. It should be pathways towards opportunities. You know what? If these tools could could solve that discrepancy, We have supply and demand of jobs, you know, like talent and jobs.
00:28:11:16 - 00:28:21:18
CHRIS PURIFOY
We should be able to be going and you should be able to just arrive at the doorstep of the perfect job for you that you've been aiming at for a while and they should know you're coming long before you get there so they can be helping to aid in the process, you know?
00:28:22:05 - 00:28:57:21
LOUKA PARRY
MM Yeah, I just, I'm thinking about your, your point on systems Chris and I've, we've had some wonderful conversations on this podcast about how systems must become liberatory, like how do they liberate learning as opposed to you know, reinforce, I'd say, pretty traditional ways of thinking about it, the values of knowledge. And so this, this idea that we need to humanize systems, not just for the learners but for the adults, they're doing the hard work, many of whom are listening to this, you know, the educators and the leaders that I think it's something that's very compelling for everybody.
00:28:57:21 - 00:29:17:07
LOUKA PARRY
And it needs to I, in my view, we humanize, like bring back together, remember the human, all the different dimensions that make us who we are. You know, the social, the emotional, the physical, the spiritual alongside the cognitive. I feel like that's part of this journey towards transforming education. And it's not necessarily just invention. It's also remembering holistic.
00:29:17:07 - 00:29:43:02
LOUKA PARRY
Indigenous worldviews have had these approaches for a long period of time. So yeah, I'm really, really thinking about that in the way that you spoken. And how does this how does a young person become the discipline? This is something that Michael Bunce speaks to a college of mind as we talk about multi-disciplinary into a transdisciplinary knowledge. But actually when you become that, you are actually the holder of knowledge and your journey can be unique within that web, that beautiful web of skills and knowledge.
00:29:44:21 - 00:30:16:02
LOUKA PARRY
Yeah, it's really powerful to consider that question for you in the real world in which we live, what's the challenge? What's the biggest challenge for education systems, for schools, for university, vocational providers? That's kind of stopping us in this movement and the work that you're doing. What are you finding is is kind of the glue that's holding back, stopping us from accelerating change as we need to do education reform.
00:30:16:14 - 00:31:02:15
JOHN GOODWIN
It's a wicked problem. It's it's really gnarly in its complexity because there's so many stakeholders involved. Almost every participant in the system has an experience based that is established within the set system. Yes. So therefore we're all company that this from the basis of well, you know, this was my experience and as a consequence of that, those that operate within the system often have the default of reaffirming it and a real challenge of the disrupted.
00:31:03:14 - 00:31:25:00
JOHN GOODWIN
So that's why I love Chris, his approach of saying, listen, we need to operate within this system and enhance it and and appreciate those that are in it. So, yeah, we we are trying to approach it from an ecosystem perspective.
00:31:25:04 - 00:31:27:01
LOUKA PARRY
Yeah.
00:31:27:01 - 00:32:11:04
JOHN GOODWIN
And truly listen to those who we believe are going to be affected not only from the learner point of view, but also those that are that already participate in formal education structures as well so that they can also have a voice and participate in the change. So I think the biggest challenge for me is just the complexity of enabling education reform and at the same time, to be frank, the urgency that's burning inside me as I look at some of the wider societal challenges that are emerging and the polarization that exists ever increasingly within cultures.
00:32:12:12 - 00:32:40:04
JOHN GOODWIN
You know, for me, we we need to help people in their learning journey to get their value from the contributions that they can make into society and see their contribution as one to take down those that disagree with them, but more to remain curious. And I think being part of that is a love of learning.
00:32:40:17 - 00:32:46:05
LOUKA PARRY
Yeah. Beautiful. John. Chris, what's the what's the challenge from your standpoint?
00:32:46:05 - 00:33:08:18
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, I mean, I he's right It's it's legacy. You know, honestly, like education is a massive legacy system. It's been around a long time. It has systems that you know people are used to a lot of people that are in their lifetimes, you know, and it's not just some legacy systems of thought and individuals, but it's the system itself.
00:33:08:18 - 00:33:25:17
CHRIS PURIFOY
It's legacy technologies, like education was an early adopter on technology. So they were really early in their systems are now really old because of it. And there's a lot of buy in on what they've done and just tacking on and adding new things and technology taking on. And there's a real fear of this idea of like starting afresh.
00:33:25:21 - 00:33:45:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
Starting afresh is a very scary idea, you know? So instead you add more to it and then this complexity emerges that he's talking about in so many ways and still legacy, you know, legacy is the threat. But I would also say that legacy is the opportunity, right? We can create a new legacy, Right? Legacy used to be a good word, you know, like create a legacy.
00:33:45:15 - 00:34:02:13
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, the legacy here could be that our generation, we're the ones that can make a change, you know, and, you know, generation is in an age of it's a mindset, you know, in the mindset of this generation, you know, should be like, we can be the change. You know, this is and, you know, we're here. We're ready for it.
00:34:02:13 - 00:34:18:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, something's changed. You know, people don't hold down jobs for 20 years like they used to. They liked about around you know, people are nomadic. They're interested in kind of exploring and learning new things and being part of the change. You know, a lot of people like to talk not about millennials or something because they're lazy, but that's false.
00:34:18:15 - 00:34:45:08
CHRIS PURIFOY
It's because you're not giving them purpose. Because if you give a millennial purpose or give us as a linear purpose, they will work harder than anyone else and they'll do it for nothing because they just want to be empowered. They just want to feel like they're a part of something that matters. And and I think that we can make speed, we can make people feel like they're part of something that matters right from the beginning, just by understanding who they are and what skills they have and how that fits into the continuity of their life.
00:34:45:18 - 00:35:00:15
CHRIS PURIFOY
And all of a sudden, like their life becomes a purpose. You know what? If your purpose was to learn and to grow and you understood where you could go. And I just think I think everyone will surprise us. And so I think that the systems that exist today and those people that are there, it's hard to make change.
00:35:00:15 - 00:35:23:06
CHRIS PURIFOY
But, you know, the call to action here is like make a new legacy, right? Give them digital wallets. Let them all that help them understand what their skills are. You know, embrace new technologies, but not as a silver bullet, but as an aid towards being a better teacher, you know, towards being able to really empower them in a way that isn't just pushing them through one course to the next so that they keep arriving at a new vacuum, not knowing who they are.
00:35:23:06 - 00:35:42:21
CHRIS PURIFOY
Like, what if there was a continuum to that? What if there was a continuity to that? So every teacher benefits from the past teacher and every employer benefits from the past employer and you know, your upskilling and that upskilling at one job helps you with another. And everybody understands that this is a learning ecosystem, you know? So yeah, yeah, you know, give them digital, build a new legacy.
00:35:42:21 - 00:35:43:14
CHRIS PURIFOY
That's what I say.
00:35:44:22 - 00:36:06:05
LOUKA PARRY
Jessica, is I'm just really powerful, really powerful to reflect on that. John, your point as? Well, about the urgency, I think that's something that I can really clearly at the Transforming Education Summit in New York that all three of us were at. Is this you know, we are in this crisis moment for education, You know, and it's not just about equity and inclusion.
00:36:06:05 - 00:36:29:20
LOUKA PARRY
It's quality and relevance as well. And I think, Chris, your point. Yeah, if millennials and this is millennials, you know, the hyper engaged, disengaged, the hyper engaged, but the thing is they will choose only what is going to feels purposeful, feels meaningful, and a kind of crisis of meaning, I think is another interesting thread here. My final question, because you've really kind of come to this anyways.
00:36:29:20 - 00:36:52:02
LOUKA PARRY
You know, the great thing about podcasting is you are speaking directly to an audience, and in this audience are largely educators, leaders, innovators, some entrepreneurs and parents know what's the invitation that you would let them in? And Chris, I think you've brought this beautifully in terms of, you know, we need a new legacy. You know, how do we how do we kind of shift who we are and focus on who we are and what we can do and then what we know.
00:36:52:20 - 00:36:58:05
LOUKA PARRY
But what's what's the invitation that you would say directly to the people listening today?
00:36:58:05 - 00:37:16:19
CHRIS PURIFOY
Well, what I said already, I mean, I think the beginning of this this great change towards this great future and this new legacy, it starts in digital wallets. So that's step one. You know, give every digital wallets they can start collecting their skills like assets or achievements like access, so they can start to understand what those mean and what happens for themselves and for the future.
00:37:16:20 - 00:37:32:02
CHRIS PURIFOY
So start there. And, you know, a shameless plug. We you know, if you go to w w w dot learn cars.com, you know, we do have a digital wallet that's all free. It's open sourced. You know, it's you know, we're not I'm not trying to push a product here. I'm trying to push a movement, you know, come and get it.
00:37:32:07 - 00:37:47:22
CHRIS PURIFOY
You know, if you're a if you're a educator, are you a part of a system or, you know, go there, find it, use it. It's I mean, we're happy to help you if you need some help, but otherwise, just do that. And that's that's step one, right. And in making that change.
00:37:48:11 - 00:37:53:04
LOUKA PARRY
I love it. Thanks, Chris. John, what about you? What's the invitation to people listening today?
00:37:53:22 - 00:38:56:11
JOHN GOODWIN
Yeah, the invitation from me is to take back our selves, take back our learning journeys. So as we go into this next iteration of technology, I would encourage everybody on the on the podcast, listen to the podcast to really be attentive to who is it that's extracting out of the the next iteration. You know, are we truly putting the, the majority at the center of the ownership or are we unfortunately on a next iteration of value abstraction by the very privileged few to the detriment of the majority as everybody on this listening into this podcast, yeah, we're all going to have choices in the immediate future around what are the things that we support, what
00:38:56:11 - 00:39:16:02
JOHN GOODWIN
are those things that we really drive to. Chris's point one is the movement that we get behind. I don't encourage everybody to get behind a movement that really puts that learner at the center, gives them equity, mobility, sovereignty, and through that process, recaptures the value for the individual.
00:39:16:02 - 00:39:48:21
LOUKA PARRY
MM Fantastic. John Well, thank you to you both, Chris Purifoy, John Goodwin, for sharing your thoughts and for the work really being a significant part of being nodes of this, this network, this learning ecosystem, building this movement. Dear colleagues and friends, if you want to learn more about this wonderful work, please check out Learning Academy dot I o and Chris also referenced learn Cars.com, which is a wonderful digital wallet that's being created by some, you know, some excellent support from lots a whole range of partners, including the Lego Foundation.
00:39:49:01 - 00:40:03:11
LOUKA PARRY
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation about transforming education and look forward to hearing from you again soon.
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