S1E4 - Lael Stone: Leadership in Parenting and Education
Are we unconsciously perpetuating cycles from our own upbringing that limit our ability to connect with and nurture the children in our lives?
How can reimagining our relationship with emotions and mistakes transform not only our families but also our communities and future leaders?
In this transformative episode of Leading the Early Years for the Future, host Amie Fabry sits down with Lael Stone, a speaker, educator, and author with a profound mission: to reshape how we connect with ourselves and our children. From her groundbreaking work founding the Woodline Primary School to her advocacy for emotional awareness in parenting, Lael shares her journey of courage, creativity, and commitment to change.
Lael Stone is an educator, TEDx speaker, author, mother, and parenting counsellor who has worked with families for over 20 years. Her experience spans roles as a birth educator, post-natal trauma counsellor, and parenting educator, consulting with thousands of families from newborns to teenagers. She dedicated over five years in secondary schools, focusing on teens’ sexuality, well-being, and relationships, aiming to empower parents to build stronger connections with their children.
As the creator of Woodline Primary School, an innovative institution centered on emotional well-being and connection, Lael has significantly contributed to education. She co-hosted The Aware Parenting Podcast and is a sought-after public speaker, sharing her passion for fostering wellness in adults through connection and communication. Additionally, she serves on advisory boards and consults with organizations on emotional awareness and trauma-informed practices. In collaboration with The Resilience Project, she delivers presentations across Australia on raising resilient children.
Lael’s first book, Raising Resilient and Compassionate Children, debuted on multiple best-seller lists. Her work has expanded into the corporate sector, addressing the impacts of imprints and trauma on relationships and personal potential. Her second book, focusing on healing past experiences to thrive in the future, is scheduled for release in May 2025.
For more information about her work, visit:
• laelstone.com.au
• Facebook: @laelstone
• Instagram: @laelstone
• Woodline Primary School: woodlineprimary.com.au
• About Birth: aboutbirth.com.au
Additional resources:
• The Aware Parenting Podcast – over 2 million downloads
• TEDx Talk: “How to Raise Emotionally Intelligent Children” – over 3 million views
This episode isn’t just for educators or parents—it’s a call to action for anyone seeking to lead with empathy, embrace challenges, and build a more connected world.
[Trasncript Auto-generated]
Amie Fabry (00:07)
Hello friends and thank you for joining me for another episode of Leading the Early Years for the Future. I'm your host Amie Fabry and today I have the absolute joy of speaking with the incredible Lael Stone. Lael is a speaker, author and educator and her passion is supporting parents to understand their children, helping adults to process their own childhood trauma and creating education systems that value emotional awareness.
Layel, thank you so much for the important work that you do and thank you for joining me today.
Lael (00:40)
I'm really happy to be here Thanks, Amie
Amie Fabry (00:43)
My first question that I ask every guest on the podcast is what's your hidden talent? Do you have something that you either love to do, that lights you up brings you joy that perhaps sits outside of your work or it may be connected to your work.
Lael (00:57)
That is a really good question and I don't know. I feel like you'd have to ask my children or my husband because I don't know. think there's... Look, I feel like my hidden talent is I'm able to see into people and help them see what blocks them. Like I feel like I know that's kind of connected to my work, but...
I've always been really good ever since I was little, just listening to people and then being really curious about their stories and then just seeing where the stories and imprints and patterns turn up for them. It feels, it's really easy for me. I'm just like, yeah, it's a bit like a map that just kind of makes sense to me.
so I don't know, I don't know whether it's that short of that. don't know if they're, it's definitely not cooking. mean, I write a lot, but that's often for work. So I, yeah, I wonder if it's just understanding humans, you know, that, that is what feels really, it comes really naturally to me. And I think that's what I love doing.
Amie Fabry (01:52)
what an amazing skill to have and you you can see why you do the work that you do, which I want to dive into. I first heard about you and your book and your work when I was listening a couple of years ago to one of the Imperfects podcasts. And what really struck me, I think, as an early childhood educator was first and foremost, the way you were talking about children.
Lael (02:07)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (02:15)
I was just like, wow, who is this amazing woman? Because this was just like a breath of fresh air hearing the way you describe children, you know, as equals to us. And the wisdom that you were offering to parents was just so beautiful and so human centered. And then of course, I learned about your book, which I read and I love that as a parent, but also as an educator.
Lael (02:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (02:35)
And I was also blown away because you talked about the school that you started. You know, it was just such an incredible interview. anyone hasn't heard it before, I really encourage you to go back and listen. And there's quite a few podcast episodes that you have recorded with The Imperfects. But Lael can you please tell us about the work that you do? It is a little multifaceted, I think, but would love to hear more about the work that you do.
Lael (02:58)
Yeah.
Thank you. These days, I spend a lot of time traveling around the country talking. So I do a lot of public speaking, talking to parents or educators really around helping us understand children more, but and also understanding ourselves. I am still on the board of my beautiful school, which is called Woodland Primary, which is here in Victoria and
I spent three years creating the school and then was kind of very hands-on for the first few years and we're just going into our fifth year now. So, you know, I've pulled back a little bit from school, doesn't really need me anymore. You know, I've got amazing team there who are doing incredible work and it's beautiful to see that just flourish and find its feet.
but I actually now consult with other people that want to build schools. So not many people do build schools because it's a very hard thing to do. And, know, you need a lot of money, you need a lot of time, you need a lot of grit and resilience to do it. It's not an easy thing, but, I do spend some time consulting with others to kind of help them not make the same mistakes that we made. So that, that is pretty beautiful to watch that kind of come to fruition. I also work a lot with adults these days really on.
Amie Fabry (03:44)
Yeah.
Lael (04:03)
understanding their own imprints and stories and why they respond and behave the way they do. So I do that with educators, but also just with parents as well, because so much of, think for many years, we think the challenges with parenting are all around, how do I get my child to put their shoes on and why won't they listen? And is all about behavior, but it's actually all about how we respond and the environment that we create for children. And so I found that a lot of my work is helping adults understand their own stories so they can be more
aware
and conscious of how they turn up for their children. So I do that online with courses and mentorships and those kinds of things. And I've just finished writing my second book, which is coming out next year, which is exciting, which is a book for adult, for anybody really. And it's about.
understanding more of our own stories again, to look at why we do what we do in the world and how we turn up and the things that we often bump up against and why. So that's coming out soon. What else do I do? I'm a mom, probably most importantly, I have three beautiful children, but they're adults now. They're like 24, 21 and nearly 17. So they, don't have to, my mom hat is, I don't wear it as much anymore. It's just nice. I actually, it's funny. I often say all three of my kids are at home at the moment.
Amie Fabry (05:02)
Thank
Lael (05:15)
living at home and it's like living in a share house. It's pretty fun. So it doesn't really require much parenting, but it's, it's nice just to spend beautiful time with them, hanging out with them. Cause I know they're all about to fly off soon. I think that's kind of all I do. I often get flustered sometimes when I'm like, I've done this, I've done that. And I think what else do I do? No, that's probably it. That's enough. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (05:18)
Thank
you
That's pretty impressive.
I think, you know, it is worth mentioning the mum hat. I know I learned so much more about children having my own children. Then I, you know, I thought I knew a lot when I was an educator and then I had children. I was like, well, there's so much more that goes on for our little people. Can you tell me more about the work you're now doing? You said it's more focused on the adults, like so families, parents, educators, and
Lael (05:43)
Yes.
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Amie Fabry (06:00)
it's that kind of inner work. How do we as the grownups show up and respond to children as opposed to focusing on the children who, know, sometimes unfortunately are still seen as they're the ones with the problem. Can you tell me more about that work and why is that so important?
Lael (06:12)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Well, I think the reality is we were all children once we've all been parented and whether we are aware of it or not, often the way we respond to children is either the way we were raised or we often swing so far in the opposite direction because it didn't feel good in the way we were raised. And we sometimes overshoot, you know, so if we perhaps grew up in an environment where, you know, there was a lot of authoritarian power over parenting, we got yelled at a lot, you had to be good all the time, you know, you never really got to speak or express
Amie Fabry (06:21)
No.
Lael (06:45)
how you felt and that may have felt very disempowering for you as a as a human growing up and you know you kind of swear when I have kids I'll never do it that way and because that has often felt very painful for you you may be like I'm never gonna yell at my kids and I'm never gonna make them feel the way I did but
you may then kind of become very permissive and never set any boundaries. And that equally doesn't serve children as well. We need this beautiful balance of love and connection and attentiveness and attunement. And equally, we need beautiful loving boundaries where kids can push up against as well and be able to hold that and also take care of our own needs as adults. So I think one of the things is that we often end up parenting in ways that were done to us unconsciously or we shoot too far in the other direction.
And I think whenever adults would come to me, whether it was teachers or whether it was parents in there, like, just drives me mad because my child talks back or they're so disrespectful or they just won't do what I ask them to do or why won't they sleep or whatever it is. And the reaction that the adults having, I was like, there's something here for you.
You know, because in an ideal world, I mean, yes, we all get stressed as parents because parenting is tough, right? And we, we get tired. And if we don't meet our own needs and we're juggling all the balls, you know, we, we often get snappy because we just haven't got our needs met. But if we are reacting a lot and our reactions are pretty big, then I always say there's something there for us to explore. There's something to look into. What is it that comes up for you when your child doesn't listen? What does it make you feel?
Does that remind you of something? Is this a familiar feeling in your life? And I think it's a beautiful invitation to lean into what is my part within this story here. Because as I say to adults all the time, if you are having a reaction, it is about you. It is never a child's job to be emotionally responsible for an adult. They're a child. They are learning how the world works, right? And we are adults with.
a fully functioning prefrontal cortex and 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of being on this planet who should know better. But when we react and we get really fired up and we get really triggered, we often want to blame it on the child for not doing what we want them to do. Yet our mastery is around being able to pause and being able to connect to within ourselves to be like, all right, there's something going on here.
What is this beautiful little child in front of me needing? What am I not seeing here? If I had to decode what was happening here, if I was to look behind the behavior, what would I see? Well, I would see a little person that has had a massive day at care. And if I've just got home and picked them up and you know, they've been without me all day and that feels really big for them and their nervous system. And what they need is probably lots of connection and cuddles and they need to diffuse all the tension sitting in their body. So
they maybe will have meltdown when I cut their sandwich the wrong way or, you know, give their sister more ice cream or whatever it is. And it doesn't mean they're bad or wrong. It means they're just going, life feels really big for me. And our job as adults is to be curious if that is to hold our center enough to be able to decipher what this little person is doing in front of us. Yet, I think, and this is where I just have so much compassion for us as humans. I think because we are stressed.
right now and I think because we have all the balls in the air and I think because we are in this really fast paced life then what often happens is we lose our center and we don't have the ability to take a breath and go gee I wonder what's going on we just actually become reactive and I also think too if if we grew up in environments where you know there was trauma or there was you know there was a lot of aggression there was a lot of anger there was even if we were just ignored when we got upset
those feelings are going to live still inside us if we haven't processed them. And then when you have children, it's like the ultimate mirror to all your crap because the kids just stand up in front of you and go, Hey Mum Hey dad, see that there's this little bit here. And so I'm just going to behave in a way that's going to activate that. actually what I really need you to do is look at it and deal with it and process it so you don't project it onto me. So our kids are like the best barometers ever for our emotional awareness and emotional growth.
And it's our job to be curious, to be like, wow, how am I responding here? And what's that about for me?
Amie Fabry (10:55)
there's so much in there. I'm hearing you say that the way we were parented is showing up for us as adults. So I'm thinking automatically, you know, like how do we break those cycles then? You know, like if we think about children now, like if you're a parent or you're an educator working with young children now.
Lael (11:03)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (11:17)
The way we respond to them, whether it is the ignore or whether we get angry because they're not listening, because they're having the meltdown, or we can, know, it's challenging, I know, but you know, respond in that calm way that actually sees children and hears children and what acknowledges what they're feeling, but still sets a beautiful, healthy boundary.
What are the implications then like now for that child? What's going to be going on for those children in those different scenarios now? But then also what is that? How is it going to shape them as human beings as they continue to grow throughout their childhood but even into adolescence, into adulthood, whether or not they have children of their own? Like you know I'm just hearing that this has a flow on effect. This isn't just about
Lael (12:03)
yeah.
Amie Fabry (12:04)
you know, right here and now, how do I get this child to behave? This
Lael (12:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (12:08)
is actually having huge implications, right?
Lael (12:11)
Absolutely, so...
The first thing I want to say is this, is that I really do believe humans are doing the best they can with what they have at the time. And so our parents were parenting us with the information they got at the time, perhaps the way they were parented, what society and culture was telling you to do. So I never have blame on any generation. I think we have to honor the generations that have come before us, you know, because of their sacrifices and what they've done that's allowed us to be here and where we are. So one of the important pieces is not to kind of look at our parents and go,
you never listen to my feelings or you never encouraged me or, you know, we, we can feel, we can have a lot of those feelings come out, which are important to own and feel, but they're not, the job is not to take them to the parents and say, you messed up, right? It's, it's our interpretation and our data to, be able to be curious about what's there for us. So I think the first thing we have to be, you know, curious about is, you know, I talk about it in, in a term.
Amie Fabry (12:53)
Yeah.
Lael (13:06)
such as imprints, which is that we all have imprints around every part of our life. So from little babies, the moment we are born and we are watching how life happens. So if we go up in an environment where a way of communicating is to yell at each other, we believe that's normal. We go, right, well, if you want someone's attention, then you yell. If we grew up in an environment that when we cried as a little person, our parents were like, don't be so stupid, stop your crying and crying for sissies or just you were mocked when you
you're
crying, then the imprint you receive is feeling my feelings is not okay. So in order to survive, because it's all about survival when we're little, we learn it's not all right to have my feelings. So we look for a way to numb those feelings or to suppress them so we can't have them. And that becomes our map of the world. So we have imprints on everything we can have amazing imprints, right? Perhaps we grew up in a family where our parents really valued helping others and we grew up watching our parents
look after people in need or gift things or they were really charitable. That's a beautiful imprint, you know, that we have that we go, this is how we take care of people. Or I often talk about perhaps we grew up in a family that really valued getting together and eating and sharing a meal and food was such a beautiful sense of celebration. Everyone would come together, they would laugh, they would eat, it was something really beautiful. Equally, could have grown up in an environment where
You had to sit at the table and you weren't allowed to leave until you finished all your food and you got yelled and shamed at and food became a source of great stress for you. So we have imprints on everything. We watch our parents right from the beginning how they interact with each other and that's forming our identity around what relationships look like. So we see lots of tenderness between our parents. We go, okay, so you're really tender and kind to each other and relationships are respectful. Equally we see our parents belittle each other. We go, yeah, that's what you do in relationships.
We're like a little sponge and then we just have all these imprints that land on top of us and often they are deeply subconscious. We don't even realize what we're doing, but we take those stories and imprints out into the world and then we keep looking for evidence for them to be true. So if we grew up with a story that we were often told as a kid, you're too loud or you're too much, like, you know, it's, you know, stop it. Like you're too dramatic.
then we have that as our imprint. then perhaps we grow up to be a teenager and you know, we were naturally flamboyant and we say something and then someone kind of scoffs and goes, you're you're over the top. And then we go, there's more evidence. I'm too over the top. It's not okay for me to be who I am. Right. We constantly look for the evidence to reinforce the imprints that we have there. And so then we become parents ourselves. And because those imprints are there and they're often unconscious, we usually just repeat the patterns and, and we continue on and then
our children come along and ideally they push back at us and they'd be like, you know, here's a bit for you and here's a bit there. And if we have the awareness, we stop and we go, well, how does this feel for me? And what is my story and my connection to this belief system, this imprint? And then the most important question is what do the imprints I want for my children to be?
And you know, one of the courses that I run, it's like an eight week immersion course. helps us. take everybody through each week through some of the core imprints that we, that we have that shape how we parent. So we talk about trust. talk about big feelings. We talk about our relationship to self care, to boundaries, to play, to some of the biggest things that turn up in parenting. And what I do is I get people to really reflect and unpack what was modeled to you. What was the message in your house?
What is your imprint now and what is it that you believe that you're modeling to your kids and does that feel good? And that is where I think we begin to go, okay, I want to change some of this. And so the first step is just being curious. The first step is like going, wow, if this was a book, how would it read? Right? It would read like, this is the story and this is how it went. And so the first thing we do is we start to get curious of, wow, that is why I do what I do. It's not right. It's not wrong. It just is.
And then we get to ask ourselves a question, and is that what I want to do moving forward? And is that what I want my children to do? And so I think the first piece is really that beautiful inquiry of looking at where we grew up, what we were modeled, what we've believed to be true, and then really choosing, does that serve me? And do I like that? And what do I want moving forward? And then we can actually work with it. And so sometimes we have to...
You know, we have to dig a bit deeper to why those imprints are there. Sometimes we have a loyalty to those imprints, even though we don't want to do it, but we have a loyalty to it because that's what our family does. You know, I see this a lot. If we grew up in a family where there was perhaps a struggle financially in our family. And, you know, even though we're like, I don't want it to be like that. Then if we started to earn money, we can actually feel a lot of shame around earning money. We can actually hide it because we feel like we'll be betraying our family.
because our family struggles together. So we often have loyalties to our imprints and then that can feel also, you know, really tricky to shift and change. So sometimes we have to dig a bit deeper and see what the story is. And then we begin, you know, we can have some tools that help us to shift and move what those stories are. And I think the thing, the bigger impact of this is that as we...
Understand our stories as we start to work with what do I want my imprint to be and what would I want this to look like and then we start taking little steps towards changing that belief system or actually some actions to make it move. We then begin to be conscious around what we're passing on to our children. And then where we see it, our children begin to take that on board and as I say, learn to speak a different language. And now the impact of this, and this is why I think parents these days are
You know, they're really courageous because I think this generation of parents is the one, are the ones that are really starting to do the work because we have access to information in a way that our parents did. And there's a lot of science that backs up what I'm talking about now that we begin to go, yeah, wow. You know, what happens to us impacts who we are in the world. Obviously we understand trauma more in a deeper way. So what we're seeing now is a, an ability to start working through some of this big, powerful stuff.
and change the generational patterns that have been there for a long time. But it takes a lot of courage and it can feel really messy and sticky as we do it. But the trade off is our children then get to move forward with less baggage, hopefully, but also with a greater, deeper emotional awareness, which we know is what our planet needs and what's going to change it. And, you know, I think having done this work for a long time now, and I guess using my children as my
test cases, you know, doing all the work with them. Well, I was kind of forced to, I don't think you can do this without having to do the work yourself. You know, I, I really watch particularly around emotional awareness of what it is to raise my kids with, with the imprint that I wanted for them, which is all your feelings are welcome. And our job is to help you find healthy ways to express your feelings. So it is okay to be angry. It is not okay to your sister.
But anger is not bad, right? And I'm gonna help you find healthy ways to move that anger through your body if it's there. And crying is beautiful. It is a natural healing mechanism that we all have and I welcome your tears. Now, none of that was given to me when I was raised. My parents did the best they could, but as I started to unpack the places where I never felt that it was okay to have healthy anger and where I never was able to express myself as I did more of that work.
I had more spaciousness to meet my children in that space. And so from when they were little, you when they did get angry and upset, I would hold space for their feelings. And, and then as they did that, that became an imprint that my feelings are normal. So then as they grew, whenever they got upset, they would come and say, I just need to cry. Or if they're really angry, can we get the boxing gloves out? I need to like, you know, move this through my body. And I'd be like, yes. And now I guess what I see is they are young adults and you know, I love this, that all three of my children work with children.
you know, two of them are disability support workers. So they work with, with neurodivergent children. One of them works at my school as an assistant guide. She works with the little kids and hold space for their feelings all day. Right. She's, she does an amazing job. And what I have witnessed with them is their ability to be with feelings is so relaxed and so easy because they've experienced that themselves. They, they have an embodied sense of what it feels like to be heard.
And so they bring that to the children they work with. And I often see the ease in which it sits there for them. And this, I really do believe, is how we change the future, how we change these patterns, these bigger generations, because the more that we do that, the more we hold those spaces for our children to know that all of them is welcome and to process their feelings in healthy ways, then what happens is they develop such a deep sense of connection with themselves.
And when we have a deep sense of connection with ourselves, we don't want to go and hurt other people. We don't want to destroy the planet. We don't want to do spiteful things. We come back to the place of humanity within us and then with everybody else. And for me, I think that is the goal here, right? We want to raise these children who are connected to themselves and each other so that they take care of this world that we're living in.
Amie Fabry (22:01)
that's so beautiful. I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, often, I guess even from an education perspective, which is where the work that I do sits, we don't talk about feelings enough, you know, it's about getting a good mark on on ATAR as opposed to actually, what you're talking about is a really different
value system and philosophy for actually being a human being, you know, whether it's, and it's through that journey of, of who you are in your family, but also there is an impact that school obviously has and children and young people spend so much time in school, but.
But what you're talking about is actually a way that we can grow connected human beings who are compassionate and are connected to themselves so that they can connect to each other. you don't have to look far to see really, I guess, relationships that are falling apart and that are toxic or damaging, whether it's on social media and in the digital space or even when it's happening in our communities.
Lael (22:45)
Mm. Yes.
Amie Fabry (23:05)
It is really, I think, disheartening to see that. And I love that you're talking about, you know, relationships first and foremost, like for us as adults to have a better sense of who we are and that impact that not only has on our own lives, but then to hold space for our children and young people to talk about emotions and feelings so that they learn that it's okay to have feelings, you know, and what you've described as you've witnessed your own children growing older.
space for other people. You can just see the flow and effects that that's not just having a one person's life but on our communities and the way that we show up as human beings to care for each other and care for the planet like it's just huge right like really actually profound.
Lael (23:47)
Yeah, it's I believe it's
it is.
To me, I go, how are we going to change a lot of what's going on in our world? Well, it starts in the family. It starts from when our kiddos are little, tiny babies, how we take care of the mothers, you know, when they've had their babies, how we hold the family unit, you know, so that they feel supported so that we resource the family unit so that they're not stressed so that they have more capacity to connect with children because we know connection, attachment, attunement is so vital.
I mean, you know this in the early years, right? It is everything. And how do we support our family units so that we don't see a lot of the stuff that we have? You we have a massive mental health crisis at the moment, massive across the board. And for me, I think it's, I mean, it's a bigger infrastructure problem, but it's the lack of connection. And I think also because we have a lack of connection to ourselves, you know, it's harder to then bring that to our children.
Amie Fabry (24:45)
Yeah, absolutely. Lael what led you to do this work?
Lael (24:53)
I think probably my children really, I mean, before I did what I did now, I worked in birth for a very long time. I used to be actually even before that the first company, I mean, I actually don't usually talk about this, but I'm like, this is actually relevant because you know how nothing's wasted. the first company I ever started when I was 20, it was a children's entertainment company. And, this was way back when like the wiggles were starting, right? That's how old I am. And, I wanted to be a performer, but I didn't feel fixed.
Amie Fabry (24:55)
Okay.
Yeah.
Lael (25:21)
skinned enough to keep going to auditions and getting rejected. So I just was like, how do I create my own work where I can get paid and perform? And I was like, I'll start my own business. I mean, just, I love the naivety of 20 year old Lail who's like, yeah, I'll just do my own thing. I love that in young people that you're just so like, whatever. Like I probably wouldn't do it now, but I'm like, whatever. So I had a children's entertainment company for about seven years where I used to dress up as fairies and mermaids and all sorts of stuff and entertain kids. And then we'd put on these big shows and pantomimes and
Amie Fabry (25:38)
can do that.
Lael (25:49)
It taught me lot about play. It taught me so much about play, connection, finding how to connect with children. I mean, I didn't know that that's what I was doing at the time, but gosh, it was a beautiful apprenticeship to learn how to do that. And through when I had that company, had my first child when I was quite young, I was 25 when I had Kai. And so, you know, that was a shock and, you know, being a young mom and I mean, I first time parenting is hard, no matter what age you are.
Amie Fabry (26:13)
Thank
Lael (26:14)
But it was hard being young and still running this business. And it was really tricky time. And I had a really challenging birth experience with him. And then when I got pregnant a years later and had my daughter, I knew I had to do it differently. And I had a really powerful birth with her that felt incredibly healing. And it just opened or unlocked something in me that I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to help families have a positive experience. I knew what traumatic birth felt like and I wanted to help them have a positive one.
So I became a childbirth educator. I learned the Calm Birth program and started teaching Calm Birth. And I worked as a doula for a long time, so I would attend birth. So I got to see lots of little bubbles come into the world. And my goodness, that was just the most fascinating training again for knowing how to hold space when things were tricky, especially being in birth, when women were working really hard and things were feeling tricky and there was lots of feelings and emotions and being able to hold space for them was really...
amazing and powerful and intense and all the things. So I worked in birth for a long time and then the birth kind of element then moved more into those that particularly that postnatal trauma space because I kept seeing there was so much trauma within birth. So I started doing counseling with families that had had traumatic birth experiences and then I had my third child and had a really big journey with her and then that led me to something called aware parenting which is the work of Dr. Aletha Salter which was really about how we help
babies and children heal from trauma as well, which was more about listening to feelings and holding space. And that just opened up a whole world for me because I'd had my own trauma that I had to work with. So I then had to dive deep into everything I was learning personally. And I ended up taking like nearly two and a bit years off work because I was right in the middle of my own kind of healing journey and had to do the work. And I had three kids and you know, I was doing all of that. But as I came out the other side,
I then moved more into working with groups of people and workshops and people wanting to know more and working one-on-one and just did thousands of hours of listening to people's And I think there is something so powerful about listening and holding space for people which teaches you a of a lot. And so I did that for many years. And then I think as my kids grew, my son then, when he started to become a teenager,
somehow randomly, it's not randomly, I just think life always takes you where you need to go. I ended up then teaching sex education to teenagers, which was a random thing, but I ended up going to the school one day, he was in like year eight or year nine or something and the coordinator knew I was a birth educator and he said, can you come and talk to the kids about birth? And I was like, yeah, no worries. And then as I was walking out, I just said to him, you talking to the kids about pornography and consent? He's like, no, we're not. And I was like,
Amie Fabry (28:32)
Yeah.
Lael (28:53)
You need to be like, this is really important. I mean, this is many years ago. This is about 10 years ago now. And, and he's like, do you want to come and talk to them about it? And I was like, yes. And so then all of a sudden I just created this program that I was like, what, what would 14 year old me want to know? And what do I want my son to know? And so then I just started teaching sex ed and then other schools kept hearing about it. And then before I knew it, I was teaching sex ed in secondary school, Victoria.
Amie Fabry (29:04)
with
Lael (29:17)
which was so good because I loved working with teenagers. And again, I learned so much by sitting in those spaces with them, listening to their thoughts, their beliefs and where it's sad and really trying to give them the education that I thought I desperately wanted to know when I was a teenager that no one ever talked about. No one ever talked about pleasure. No one ever talked about consent. No one ever talked about how we have awkward conversations. And so I then kind of did that for a while.
And then from there, then ended up the opportunity came to open, to build a school, which was through another client of mine. When she approached me and just said, you know, let's, let's make a school. And that was the last thing I ever had in my mind. If you had told me 10 years ago, I'd build a school. I'd be like, don't be ridiculous. Like I often joke, I didn't even like education. I didn't love going to school. My kids certainly didn't love it. So here's me going, do I end up creating a school?
But I really trusted, you know, was an opportunity to create something new and different and bring everything that I had learned through the lens of trauma, through the lens of connection, attachment, how we help children thrive, healing, and bring that into an education sense. And so we really looked at how do we build something where it's the child first, not, as you say, the data, not even the learning.
but coming through that philosophy, it's very hard for children to learn if they don't feel safe in their bodies, if they don't feel safe in their environments. So how do we put safety first, emotional safety first? How do we create environments where children can relax? there's not this threat of always getting in trouble. I mean, we absolutely have boundaries and we have rules and ways that things work like any school or like any place where there's a group of people. But how do we do it without that punitive element, where we're not?
shaming where we're not using punishments and rewards, how do we do it in a different way? So yeah, that's then that's I spent three years of my life kind of creating wood line and then you know that opened and you know I think every step of the way has come because I think opportunities have come to me or there's been a need to create something new.
And I'm a big believer of just jumping in and figure it out. Like, you know, I'm like, okay, yeah, that sounds all right. Let's do that. Let's see what happens. I mean, my husband these days, I'm like, I've got this idea and he's like, what? Like, he's like, Layol. I mean, no, no, no, no, no. Like I remember when I finished, I'd finished writing this book, which is coming out next year. And I literally just finished it the day before and then we were driving somewhere and I said to him, so, I was just thinking and he goes, Layol, you just.
Amie Fabry (31:24)
Yeah.
Thank
Lael (31:43)
finished your book, like just pause on that for a minute. said, no, no, I've done that. I'm ready for the next thing. So I do. love to respond well to what life is bringing me and to, I think where I see a need for deeper connection and in a way that we can help people have information that can help them understand themselves more and that can influence where we are on this planet. So I think the reason that I do what I do is probably because I want
Amie Fabry (31:47)
Hahaha
Lael (32:11)
I don't know, I want to help humans, but also I really want children to be understood and I really want these beautiful little people to be treated in the way that they deserve to be treated. You know, that's, think, what really fuels me is to be an advocate for them in the world.
Amie Fabry (32:30)
What a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I literally have goosebumps. Wow, that's so profound. And there's so much there. It's incredible. What really stood out for me listening to you was that you are someone that seizes opportunity, like that notices there's an opportunity here.
Lael (32:51)
Mm.
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (32:55)
you know, not, not like even when you're talking about, you know, shifting into sex ed, you know, not just going, no, I just do this, you know, but actually going, here's an opportunity. And here's, here's a way that I can actually bring something and make a difference. But I can also hear as you're explaining this, like you're responding to, I guess, a need and an opportunity. But then at the end, you really summed it up that it was because that you've got this clear
Lael (33:04)
you
Amie Fabry (33:21)
I think purpose and you can actually see it's not just any opportunity but it's an opportunity to create connection. It's an opportunity to actually help people, to support people.
Lael (33:23)
Mm.
Hmm.
Thank you.
Amie Fabry (33:36)
Can you tell me more about that? I'm, you know, I'm thinking and I'm kind of at a very high level looking at your journey and going, you know, you are an incredible leader. What comes to mind is just so much courage, you know, to step into those opportunities. Have you always had that courage? Is it just your personality trait or is it something that you've kind of had to work through?
Lael (33:50)
Yeah.
I do, I do feel that.
I've always been the type of person to go, yeah, let's give it a go and see what happens. I'm not afraid to take a risk. And, and my theory is this you'll learn something regardless, whether it works or whether it doesn't, I'm going to learn something. So we may as well give it a go. So I think talking about imprints, you know, my mother was a really courageous woman who would often do things out of her comfort zone to
you know, better understand herself to step out into the world, all those kinds of things. So that was modeled for me. And I also, you know, the other imprint I had was from my dad who just said, follow your heart. There'll always be a way to do something. There's always a way to make money. There's always a way to do something like go do what you love. So I had these beautiful role models or imprinting around anything as possible, like go find it, go figure out and
I say to people all time, I am not formally educated. I mean, I've finished year 12, but I don't have a university degree. didn't do anything like I, followed my path. And I know that the way that I learned best is by doing it's not by reading books and you know, which I still do love, but I learned best by sitting in the moment. What's real life data? What am I seeing? What am I learning?
it's doing something enough and as many times that you begin to then master that. Now I know that's not for everybody, but for me, I know that that's how I learn best, which is by doing. So I think because of that, I'm not afraid to throw myself into something and go, let's see. I'm also a massive fan of doing the apprenticeship. So whenever I did something new, I was like, all right, who's done this before me and who's doing it well?
And can I go speak to them and can I shadow them and can I ask them to mentor me or can I ask them to, to, show me how they've done it? Like I, I love watching people and watching people who do stuff well and go, yeah, okay, that works. That doesn't, what feels good. So in anything I've done, I've kind of found these beautiful teachers who have, you know, walked before me and I've been like, show me, show me everything, you know, like, you know, I want to come and learn from you and from your wisdom.
And, I think that that's what's been a beautiful guide for me as well. So I know, I think the thing I often want to say to people is we are all different. And I know this about me. I know that I am courageous and sometimes I have no idea how I'm going to do something, but I'll figure it out. And so I just jump in and just do it. And that's me. Now I know for other people, that sounds terrifying, you know, and they have to
tick all the boxes and do the spreadsheets and do anything before they do it. And that's that there's a place for that as well. It's not right or wrong. It's just different. And I think I've realized now, you know, having my own companies for 30, like I've been in business for 30 years now that I'm like, I know how I work best. I know how to, make something and put it out there in the world and see how it goes. And, know, I still have wobbles and doubts like, know, this new book that's coming out just yesterday. I was like,
I don't know if it's any good. I was saying to my husband, I don't know. And he's like, Leo, come on. And I was like, I don't know. You still have the doubts, but I go do it anyway. So, you know, I had my day yesterday where I'm like, I don't know. And, know, people just telling me it's good to be nice and I don't know. And then I'm like, we'll do it anyway, because whatever happens, you'll learn something from it. So there's nothing to lose. And I also really do believe in.
It takes courage to step out of your comfort zone and do something new. So no matter how it lands, you've won anyway, because you were courageous enough to say yes. So it actually doesn't matter whether it's a success or not. You've created something and that's magnificent. So, you know, I kind of live by that mantra as well.
Amie Fabry (37:47)
It's such a great attitude to have, like such a good outlook, you know, to have that courage and to know that you're going to learn something from the experience. But I also love that you
have been so proactive in actually reaching out to others and learning from them. think this, you know, when I think about leadership and this is really what we're talking about is you are a leader, you're a courageous leader who's willing to step into a new opportunity even when you don't have it figured out yet, right? And, but you're willing to learn and I think
Lael (38:14)
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (38:18)
You know, we still have so many leaders and so many, I guess, old kind of mental models of leadership that you can't be a leader unless you've got it all figured out or you've got all the answers. But in actual fact, you know, being brave to just take the next step creates so many opportunities to learn. And I think we need more leaders who are willing to learn from other people, right?
Lael (38:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think if we, we sit in a place where we go, well, I've mastered it there's nothing to learn, then we're going to come undone because we are constantly learning life. I'm sure that in, when I'm in my eighties and nineties, I'll still be like, Ooh, that's interesting. What did that mean for me? Like, I think we are, we are here to be, to constantly grow and learn if we're willing to. And I think that everything is an opportunity for growth. And.
I think, you know, we can box ourselves in or we can limit the possibility and the potential if we don't open ourselves up to constantly growing and learning and expanding within it.
So I think we all need a person. We all need a person. Like I do really great stuff in the world and I know a lot of stuff and I support and mentor lots of people, but I have a person that I go to and go, I am so in my stuff here. cannot see my way out. Like, can you help me here? Like I need someone to reflect back to me. I need someone to go, what are you things going on for you here? So I think we all need a person or people.
to help us see our blind spots because we're pretty good at having blind spots and protecting ourselves and making everyone else wrong. I think we're pretty good at that. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (39:43)
Thank
true, so true
and I'm thinking you you mentioned before like even yesterday you were having some of the self-doubt creeping you know it it just goes to show like we're all human beings right like none of well maybe if we're a narcissist it's a bit different but you know most of us do actually doubt our own capability or we might doubt what we're putting out into the world. Is this you know do your mentors sort of help you with those kind of challenges as well?
Lael (40:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, it's
I think when I go to my support network, it is sometimes just, it's, it's about seeing bigger than what it is. Like, I think we go, okay, I've hit that milestone. It's amazing. But we all kind of have this glass ceiling that we go, no, that's too big or that's too much, or that's too much money or, know, but what if I, you know, expand in this way? think we can all, and again, a lot to do with that imprints, our culture and society, particularly here in Australia does not support people thriving and getting
big. have tall poppy syndrome, which basically is like, well, if you're succeeding, that's just going to mirror back to me that I'm not. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to judge you, right? To make myself feel better. And that's often what we've been taught to do in our culture, instead of celebrating people's incredible courage and success and hard work. We do it in sport, but we don't often do it in many other places. And so I think it's, it's interesting that, you know, we, we have that as a bit of an imprint, I think as humans.
And for me, think with my really beautiful people that, you know, that I go to sometimes actually just what I, what I want from them is just to listen to me, but also just to reflect back my humaneness, to just be like, yes, you feel like that. And you also can be big or you also can take this next step or, you know, what is the story that's coming up for you there? And it's just a gentle holding. That's often just what I need.
Like, you know, I do really believe we often all have the wisdom within us. Sometimes we just get in our own way and we can't see it. I think it's, you know, sometimes I say to myself, if I'm in something, I go, what would I ask a client? If I was, if I wasn't me right now and I was working with someone, what are the questions I'd ask them? But it's sometimes hard when you're in it, you're entangled in your own story. So, you know, I think that's why we need people to hold space for us to help us see our way out.
Amie Fabry (41:58)
Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? So true, because we're too close to it. Too close to it. you know, we need those people to help us see the blind spots because we do have them, What do you think would be your biggest learnings about being a leader or leadership?
Lael (42:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's a good one.
I definitely think having Woodline in the last few years has taught me more about leadership than anything. because as you'd be aware in any institution or system, and there's people, all sorts of different people involved in it, it's big. You have parents, you have educators, you have the children, you have the wider community. There's a lot, and there's a lot of people's feelings and there's a lot of projections that go on. And when you're also trying to create something new, it's tricky, you know, it's, it's tricky.
to help people understand your vision as well and people come with all their own stuff. And so, you know, the last few years has taught me a lot about how I can support the leaders of my school to be able to then do what they need to do. And I think the thing is what I've really learned about leadership is sometimes we take it so personally, we get so entangled with
but you know, this is about me. And instead of actually going, actually, what's the role that we're doing here? And what's going to serve the bigger picture of this business, this company, this school, this whatever. If we didn't make it personal, we stood back a bit and we could look at what's playing out there and we look at all the information, what's needed? Does this person need more support here? Do we need to change some of the ways that we do stuff? What have we seen works and what hasn't?
You know, when we created Woodline, one of the biggest things we said right from the beginning is all of us are going to have to do a lot of unlearning. If we want to create something new, you have to unlearn the way that it's been done for a long time. So we have to be willing to make mistakes and we have to be willing to own our mistakes. So a lot of unlearning has come from, yep, we did that, that didn't work. Or, you know, we tried to make
this thing happened and then that was too clunky and it didn't feel good. And so what have we learned from that? And we own that and how do we move forward? And you know, sometimes people are very open and they're willing to go on that path with you. And then sometimes they're not, and that's hard, you know, and, and, you know, that's been a challenge as well. And so I think, I often think, especially with a system like a school, and when you're trying to do something a bit differently, it brings its challenges. absolutely does. And often over the years, I would think about
people who made these massive businesses. think about Steve Jobs, or I think about people that had done these really big pioneering things and all the challenges they would have had to bump up against and still hold their vision for what they wanted. And that's hard sometimes when you're kind of getting knocked down a bit or when challenges are happening. Yet I think the way you see them, the challenges is vital. So I really began to go, okay, this is the contrast. The contrast is this is what we don't want.
And what do we want it to look like? We want it to look like this. What would be the greatest feeling if around something that we're wanting here? And I would say that to the leaders at my school, that'd be like, let's talk about it. What do want it to look like? What do you want it to look like? Like let's dream what we want it to look like. How do we get there? What, what is the contrast shown us that what do we need to do differently? So I think.
being open to just keep seeing the contrast. Thank you. That's been a gift. Let's keep moving closer towards what feels in alignment with our vision. you know, and it's not easy at times. Like it's, it's not easy. There's plenty of times where you're like, this feels really hard. I don't want to do this anymore. But then you see the evidence of the beauty and then you go, okay, you know, let's do it. So, you know, it's still a work in progress. You know, I think in 20 years time, you know, if I go back and visit Woodline, I'll be like, wow.
Amie Fabry (45:29)
you
Lael (45:41)
This is wild, right? As sometimes things take time to cement, sometimes it really, there's so much learning that has to happen around the way you do stuff. So anything new and innovative is often hard. It's really hard. And that's why a lot of businesses don't last past a year or two, because it's really tricky. So you've got to have that grip to be like, okay, how can we do it? And I think the key piece of any leader is the willingness to.
be vulnerable, the willingness to see the contrast, to not make a personal life possible, to go, what are we learning here? How do we see what we can do to move forward and have the support around you to actually do it is vital.
Amie Fabry (46:19)
Yeah, amazing. You talked about having a vision and bringing people into that. What does it look like? Feel like? What is it that we're trying to achieve versus comparing to what we don't want? Is that kind of what motivated you, inspired you to keep going and not give up when you hit some of those challenges?
Lael (46:36)
Yeah, for sure. Because I especially like when I talk about the context of Woodline, you know, I spent a lot of hours dreaming what it would be. Like I spent a lot of time going, how do I want the children to feel? And how do I want the adults to feel? And how do I want the guides and the educators to feel? And, you know, I spent a lot of time dreaming of the vision of what it could be, you know, which came from, I think this knowing what
I didn't want to go, what do I want here? Right. So I, you know, I watched all my three kids struggle in the education system, you know, just because, you know, one's an athlete and you know, he just hated sitting at a desk and the other one is super creative and needs to connect. And pretty much if they learn anything, they have to talk about it. So then often we get in trouble for talking all the time. And my third child was just like, why are we just, why, why am I learning about this? Like this makes no sense. And I was like, yeah, like just.
Amie Fabry (47:21)
Yeah.
Lael (47:25)
such a truth teller, like such a truth teller. God. And I watched them all just go, this doesn't feel right for me. And so, you know, I kept thinking, well, what is the place that I would want them to feel held in? And what did I want as a kid? And what is the, there's so many stories I've heard of adults around the challenges that they experience. Well, what could that look like if we created something different? And so I think that that has
been a big part of, you know, keeping on going when it's tricky, to be like, I know in my bones that this is a beautiful offering in the world. And I know that as we are learning and growing, you know, and there's no perfect in schools, right? It's, it's, there's no, this is the utopia. It doesn't exist, but I know that as we keep working towards refining and
and getting closer to, I think we've always held our vision, but I think just we're learning the parts along the way. I just knew in my bones that it would work and it does. There's a lot of evidence there of the beauty of how it works really well. And my hope is that other people will come and see what we do and we collect enough data over the years to go, hey, this is what we see. Because it's really about helping children to get through primary school, to come out the other end with such a strong sense of themselves that they're ready to then step into that adolescent phase.
feeling connected grounded. That's what we want, right? And, they have a strong sense of knowing how to learn. You know, they're really excited learners. They know how they learn best. They also understand emotional awareness, intelligence, you know, in interactions and relationships. Like that's what we want. We want to, I think that's what the world needs. The world doesn't need more kids that are just wrote information back at someone. We want them to be creative thinkers. We want them to question stuff. We want them to
to tap into that beautiful creativity and curiosity, which is where innovation comes from. So how do we support that for them to be able to come that? So, you know, that's always been the goal. And I think we get closer to it. And I hope again, we collect enough data over the years to say, this is what's possible. And other people go, yeah, hey, we might copy some parts of that. And you know, that's what I would love. I would love for there to be alternatives, you know, so that it can support children as we grow.
Amie Fabry (49:29)
it.
Lael (49:34)
I don't believe that we are the answer. I think we're one answer. think there's lots of different things that are out there that's going to support just the changing world and our changing systems. And, and that is exciting to be part of something like that. And it also has not been easy. And you know, there's critics, it's like anything new, there's critics, which is fine, you know, and I've had to over the years just go, you know what?
You build a school, you do it, and then come and tell me what you think. Right. Then we'll have a conversation, but until you've done it and you've, and you've had to like work with all the moving pieces, you kind of just have to block it out to go, okay, keep going, keep doing what we're doing. And I feel that for anybody who does something new and innovative, I just think people who are courageous enough to do it. I'm like, I take my hat off to you because you're taking a risk and you're also trying to do something new and classically as humans, we, judge.
What we're unsure of. We will stick to stuff that we know, even if we don't like it, because at least we know it. So I just think anyone that is brave enough to take a risk and try something new, hey, it may not work the first time, may not work the fifth time, but you are living and you are trying and creating. I, I have, I am, I'll be standing in the ring, like clapping hard for you, right? No matter what it is. Cause I'm like, I know how hard it is. know it. And I.
Amie Fabry (50:29)
Yeah.
Lael (50:51)
You know, I really do champion people who take risks, are creative, are just going, yeah, I'm going to give it a go.
Amie Fabry (50:58)
That's so beautiful. What a beautiful mission that you have for Woodline School. Like it is so remarkable. It's so profound. And I think, you know, that clearly is what drives you to keep going, right? To ignore the naysayers, to push through the challenges because you know it's worth it, right? Like, you know, making a difference to these children and young people, to come out the end of primary school with a strong sense of creativity and identity and know who they are like that.
So important. And I love that you've thrown in some advice to around being courageous and being a cheerleader for the people who are courageous because it is hard to do something different, particularly as you said, we are living in a society that just likes the same. Interrupting the status quo is hard to do. Yeah.
Lael (51:44)
Mm.
Yeah, and
but I think that the irony of us as humans is we like to judge what's there, then we won't do anything to change it.
Amie Fabry (51:53)
We
Sorry.
Lael (51:57)
And we're just so much more comfortable sitting there judging it. And I'm like, okay, you don't like it. Make a change, advocate for something, do something new. But we're all pretty good because we've been pretty much conditioned to just sit there and judge what's there. And we do that. We're all judgmental humans, but I think it's, you know, I've learned over the years from a leadership point of view too, that it's usually the people that are out there putting themselves on the line are the ones that are the least judgmental. They are the ones.
Amie Fabry (52:10)
Mm-hmm.
Lael (52:25)
that are not tearing each other down, they're not the ones that are criticizing because they're busy doing and championing others, you know? And I think that that's vital. You know, I have a beautiful friend who's an amazing businesswoman and we voice note each other maybe every day and we just champion each other. That's our job with each other. Like we bring the hard stuff to our voice notes and the good stuff.
But she is like, my success is her success and her success is my success. And we just constantly are like, you've got this, like you here is, you know, this, what you were doing is important for the world. And you know, we all need that. We need a cheerleader in our corner for sure. And, you know, I, I value that relationship so much because I know that she knows how hard it is being brave and courageous and putting it out there. we, and sometimes it feels lonely doing that. So we need somebody in our corner.
Amie Fabry (53:14)
Yeah that's so true, Do you have any last pieces of advice or wisdom to share with anyone listening whether they're a parent or an educator or a leader or just wanting to do something and make it make a difference to the world?
Lael (53:30)
Yeah, I think for me, the thing that I keep coming back to is this is when we know our own story, so we understand more about why we do what we do, that is one of the most powerful bits of information that we can have. When we can know ourselves well and understand ourselves well, then we gather, we have the opportunity to pause.
when stuff goes on and get curious as to why it's there. And then we can actually respond instead of react. And that, that's like a superpower because I think what I see these days is we are all about our perception and our projection, which means whether it's your mother-in-law, whether it's your kids, whether it's a work colleague, when something goes on and we have a reaction,
We make it mean what we make it mean, and then we project it onto that person and they're wrong or they're this or they're that or all the things. And actually I think the power sits in being able to take a moment and go, I'm having a reaction. What is that about? Have my boundaries been crossed? does, does that make me feel like I'm not good enough right now? Or, you know, is that just reflecting to me that I really actually need a break and I need to set a limit and take some time for myself.
When we can pause and be curious, then we are able to transform what is there and then move forward. But when we take that reaction and then we throw it on everybody else, then that's where we create often dysfunction and chaos and we push up against each other. And I'm not saying don't have boundaries and all those things, like it's important, there's a balance, but the first step is 100 % our reflection of what is here for me right now.
And I think if you can play that game and catch that and be curious about it, then you are going to move through life with a lot more grace and ease.
Amie Fabry (55:21)
That's so beautiful, That self-awareness piece right there takes us full circle right back to where we started with our conversation today. Lael thank you for sharing your story, your experience, and also your beautiful wisdom. I've learned so much from you. I've really enjoyed our conversation and I know everyone listening will as well. Thank you for your time. It's so appreciated.
Lael (55:31)
Mmm.
You're
so welcome. Thanks, Amie
