S1E6 - Danica See: Doing Things Scared
What implicit messages might we be sending to children when we focus primarily on compliance rather than their emotional well-being?
How can educators and caregivers balance guiding children’s behavior while also honoring their emotional needs and autonomy?
Dr. Amie Fabry engages in a compelling conversation with Danica See, an education consultant and mentor celebrated for her expertise in early childhood education, guiding children’s emotional development, and fostering holistic approaches to learning and behavior. With over 16 years of experience, Danica shares insights on the guidance based approaches to behaviour management, honoring children as whole beings, and her dedication to reshaping narratives around children’s emotional and behavioral development.
Danica See is a highly experienced educator and consultant with a diverse background in early childhood education. Her career spans various roles, including assisting in early learning centers, classroom teaching children aged 3 to 7, supervising practicum placements for preservice teachers, lecturing and tutoring at the university level. Through her extensive career, Danica observed a significant gap in quality support and training for addressing children’s behavior and emotional needs, particularly in navigating their big feelings.
As the founder of Little Bloom Consultancy, she has turned to dedicate transforming how early childhood educators approach behavior and emotional development, emphasizing children’s rights and contemporary behavior guidance. Rooted in neuroscience, trauma-informed care, and neuro-affirming practices, Danica advocates for equitable treatment of children and better support for educators in managing behavior and addressing children’s big feelings.
Connect with Danica See
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Hire this host via hello@thelearningfuture.com
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Amie Fabry (00:01.221)
Hello and thanks for joining me on Leading the Early Years for the Future. I'm your host, Amie Fabry, and today I have the honor and privilege of speaking with an experienced educator, a lecturer, and a mum of two. Danica See is also an educational consultant and the owner of Little Bloom Consultancy. I'm so delighted that you're here joining me today. Thank you so much.
Danica See (00:28.005)
Amie it is an absolute honor to be able to come onto your podcast and chat with you today. One of my favorite humans.
Amie Fabry (00:37.019)
So, so good to be having this chat. I really enjoyed coming onto your podcast. So it's nice to be able to return the favour and have you here to chat about all the amazing work that you do. But before we dive into that, I'd love to know, do you have a hidden talent? Something that maybe people don't know about you, something that brings you joy or lights you up outside of the work that you do?
Danica See (01:01.09)
So I thought long and hard about what a hidden talent might be. aside from coming to the realisation that I think I might maybe need to play a little bit more, I actually think that my hidden talent might be eating.
Amie Fabry (01:17.443)
Hahahaha
Danica See (01:20.9)
I am an avid cafe hopper. Brunch is my favorite meal. And I really delight in going to new places to eat different things, breakfast mostly. I do also love a good spicy marg or a cini scroll and have pretty much sampled my way around Perth for both of them. So I think that that is my play. eating is really, that's how I play. And then aside from that,
I actually really love gardening, but mostly weeding because I see it as forced mindfulness. And when I'm waiting, I'm actually really present. And as someone with a really busy mind, I really like to slow down and to focus on being out in nature, but gardening and making sure my plants don't die.
Amie Fabry (02:12.025)
It's very, very important. that's beautiful. thank you for sharing. I love really learning more about people. know, like we often just see the professional side, but there's so much more to us as human beings. So thank you for sharing. That's really beautiful. And I'm going to have to hit you up for some hot tips and favorite cafes, I think, to explore. So let's dive into the early years. And I know you've been working the early years for a long time.
You know, we often talk about the early years and I think for us who are educators or leaders working in this space, sometimes we take for granted what we know, I think. We know that it's important and I think one of the big roles that we all need to keep playing is how do we share what we know with people beyond our circle so that more people in our society really understand why the early years are so important. So I'd love to hear
your thoughts on this? Like why, you know, as an educator but also a lecturer through your research consulting and you're also a mum, why do you think the early years of life are such an important time?
Danica See (03:27.914)
I think I can really nerd out on talking about why I think the early years are so important. And I think that it's all got to do with how we're learning so much now about neuroscience and the importance of all of the really rich experiences that we can provide to children in the early years in terms of their brain development. But I think if I really reflect on that question and think a little bit deeper, think for me, being somebody who's so passionate about supporting
adults in how they work with children's behaviour, that how we work with children in the early years is such a definitive factor in their developing sense of self. So how they see themselves, how they see the world, their relationship with others, that they're worthy of being given or not given.
they're gonna have their needs met by the people around them and that they're worthy of that. And so I think that it's really important because when we're supporting children and their behaviour with the old narrative that I'm sure we'll get into in why I do this work, when we're supporting children in just seeing behaviour for behaviour, we can actually start to send messages to children that they're no good if we're always focusing on their behaviours and having that problem-focused lens. Whereas when we...
understand how important the early years are and we can actually start honoring children as learners and that they're going to make mistakes in all aspects of their life, but particularly behavior, we can start to go actually, this is okay, and I'm going to guide you through all of this stuff. And I'm going to help you know that you're still an amazing individual who makes mistakes. You're still worthy of me coming to you with an understanding, supporting, guiding nature, you know, that unconditional positive regard.
And I'm going to help put all those beautiful synapses together in a way that help you know that you're worthy of all of this stuff and more. I think that that's really the crux of it for me, why the early years are so important. So children know that they are worthy human beings.
Amie Fabry (05:33.497)
Hmm, that's such a good point and I think it's one that we can so easily overlook. And I think one of the biggest challenges for people who work with our young children, whether you're an educator or parent, is like they can't necessarily or don't necessarily yet have the skills and words to tell us how they're internalizing all of our reactions, all of our actions, all of our comments.
So it's easy to actually overlook the impact that we could be having on their own identity or how they see themselves. And we often just focus on whether they're compliant or doing what I want them to do. You know, are they physically showing me that they're upset or crying sad, you know, but even though a child might be quiet and we think they're okay looking at them on the outside, there's a lot more that's going on on the inside, right? So.
I think this such an important point. if I'm like hearing you speak, it's obviously having an impact. What we do as adults in the lives of children is impacting that developing sense of identity, like right now for them and how that might play out in their immediate lives. What is the impact do you think then longer term? Like, you know, how is this gonna not only help their identity now as a
a two year old, a five year old, even a seven year old. But what do you think could have longer term as they get older, you know, into primary school and even thinking beyond. I guess where I'm thinking about this is, you know, how do you particularly as adults, you know, I know lots of adults and myself included where, know, you're reflecting on why do I do what I do and how do I show up and
Who am I as an adult and individual? And I know a lot of it is connected to what happens in the early years. So I'd like to hear you're thinking about the longer term impact that that developing sense of identity might have and carry forward with a child.
Danica See (07:46.542)
I have just messaged Brenton to come and get her because she's very distracting. So if you give him a second and then you can just edit this bit out. Otherwise I'm not going to hear your questions and I'm not going to be to answer properly. Hold that thought.
Amie Fabry (07:59.301)
So good.
Danica See (08:02.436)
I'm gonna bring it out.
Amie Fabry (08:05.199)
Yummy.
Danica See (08:07.012)
you
Danica See (08:17.252)
She is.
Danica See (08:31.66)
Okay, that's going to be much better. All right. So you were saying you were asking about what we can do now to how we respond to children with their behaviour and how that will support them in the long run. Was that your question?
Amie Fabry (08:35.601)
It's all good.
Amie Fabry (08:47.641)
Yeah, so it's obviously having an impact. What adults do now, in the here and now, is going to shape and influence a child's developing sense of identity. But is it also having an impact on them in terms of their identity and how they show up and engage in the world as they move through primary school into high school, adulthood? Is that going to have a long-term impact, do you think?
Danica See (08:53.358)
Mm-hmm.
Danica See (09:18.11)
absolutely. And I mean, I can speak from firsthand experience with this. I had a really hard time in primary school myself, where I spoke about this quite openly in my very first podcast episode, where I didn't feel like I had a champion in primary school. I had some pretty big behaviors. And I mean, when I went through primary school, we very much were working with the behaviorist lens of supporting behavior. So if you had any big behaviors, you were seen as the in funny years here, naughty child.
Now I had a lot of big behaviors and I felt really misunderstood and I had a lot of teachers that were then treating me like I was a problem child. And so what then I did was I kind of internalized that and I thought, well, if that's how you're going to treat me, then I'm going to become the problem child because at least I'm still getting attention from my peers. I didn't have many friends. And so by doing that, I was still getting some kind of attention and something was better than nothing. Right. And I think now
As I've gotten older, I've had to unpack a lot of how that's shown up for me as an adult. So, you know, I'm somebody who experiences a bit of social anxiety because I'm just perceiving now that I'm going to be rejected by people when I go out. And that's carried through with me from how I was treated by my teachers in primary school. And so I think if we take this behaviorist approach when we're supporting behavior and we're treating children like they're the problem child,
they're going to start internalizing that and that's how they're going to show up in the world. Whereas imagine if we put, if we flip that on its head and we thought, okay, well you've got some big behaviors, but these are coming from somewhere. You're not a bad kid. You're just a kid that's having a hard time at the moment. Let's see what we can do to support you a little bit more. And you know, fill those gaps of where their needs are coming from. Behaviors communication. And when we have that lens of curiosity, when we're trying to approach behavior,
these children are gonna grow up going, you know, I'm actually feeling a bit of discomfort in my body at the moment. I know that's why I'm feeling in a bit of a funk, you all that beautiful interception that they would have gotten if their teachers had have gone, your behavior is coming from somewhere rather than you need to stop that. I'm gonna treat you like you're no good. And it really influences how you show up in the long run because if you think about attachment theory and the idea of the internal working model. So when children are really young,
Danica See (11:43.182)
how their caregivers respond to them is how they expect the rest of the world to show up for them. And so if they've got caregivers who respond to them in really loving, attuned ways and become really intimately aware of behaviors and where they might come from. So the example that you're talking about before about children who might on the outside look like they're engaged, they're fairly quiet, but they've got that attuned adult that they go, actually,
I know that that's out of character for this child, something's going on. I'm going to have a chat with them and see if we can get to the bottom of what's going on for them. So when children have caregivers who show up for them in this way, they're going to go, OK, again, I'm not a bad child. I'm just having a hard time at the moment. But I know I've got people around me that I can rely on to get through this.
Amie Fabry (12:26.577)
and
Amie Fabry (12:32.729)
Yeah, amazing. my gosh, there's so much to unpack in there, you know, like even talking about your own experience, you know, like what we can dismiss as naughty behavior or even overlook because our children are compliant and quiet and doing what we want them to on the outside. The repercussions of some of that internal dialogue or how children show up, you know, like you're saying around your own social anxiety because
you go into a situation, you're not sure if people are going to reject you or label you because that's what happened in your past. You know, that carries with someone throughout their life. And I think it's just so profound, you know, those experiences that children have in those earliest years. You know, we all say that they shape their future and shape their identity. But when you really think about an individual and those messages that they are receiving,
from the people in their world who are the people who have the responsibility to care for them and look after them and guide them like families and educators. It's really, really significant, you know, that impact. And I think we can very easily forget just how profound our role is and that responsibility. And I don't say that to scare people, you know, I actually see it as a
enormous privilege but something that is so profound that we really need to keep remembering that and and spend a lot of time thinking about it right and look I'm speaking as a former educator I know I made plenty of mistakes so I'm not saying you have to be perfect and I'm a mum and I make mistakes all the time but I do think it's something worth thinking about so I really want to dive more into the work that you do so tell us what is what do you do at Little Bloom?
And again, I guess it's connected to what you were saying, but why it's so important that we can take this role as educators to support our children.
Danica See (14:37.462)
Yeah, I would love to share. I guess at the surface level, it would look like very, very simply, I'm providing support for early years professionals in how they show up for children in terms of supporting their big behaviors, their big feelings. So that's the real surface level. But I think if you get deeper, what it is that I'm really hoping that I can do is to shift the relationship that people have with behavior.
Now for somebody like me, when I started teaching, because I actually had a really negative relationship with big behaviors, with uncomfortable feelings, when I was little, I was told that any big feelings were no good. I should only feel happy. And when I'm feeling angry, actually don't take up space in this world. It's not great. I wasn't shown how to have those feelings and how to have those behaviors. And so when I started teaching in classrooms, I had no idea how to show up for these little children.
who were five years old, who were having these big feelings, these big behaviors, and I just had no idea how to do it. I had to kind of go through this really big confronting process of revisiting my own experiences, unlearning the ways that I've taught how to be with children when they're having like big behaviors or big feelings, and how to put puzzle pieces back together in a way that honored children as whole beings, that honored their rights.
that really heroed working with children through a respectful lens. And so what I'm hoping that I can do is to help others to do the same. What's really hard with that, though, is that I think that as a society, we're led to think that what we need is the winning strategy. But there is no such thing as a winning strategy. And actually, the winning strategy would be doing the work.
doing the unlearning process and relearning and putting things back together, which can be really, really hard. So it's difficult to be able to really put what I do in a nutshell because it's really all encompassing in getting people to really reconsider how they're showing up for children when they've got big behaviors and really big feelings, because it can trigger a lot from us. Now, if a child's having quite an angry moment, it's in our human nature to then
Amie Fabry (16:49.265)
Thank you.
Danica See (17:04.098)
respond to like with like and it can elicit feelings of anger in us. And then what we need to do, like I'd said before, is we need to work through, well, why am I having this response? What are the tools that I've got to recognise these feelings coming up with me? What's in my toolkit so I can support myself that I can then show up and support this child? So it's rebuilding our toolkit, but then the toolkits that we've got to support children as well. And moving away from that dominant narrative and really moving past the idea of
behaviorist strategies, I think is the biggest thing that I could do. Putting behavior charts in the bin. That's what I'm aiming for.
Amie Fabry (17:44.913)
gosh. there's so much to unpack. yeah, there's, there's really some very diverse views, isn't there, around, I guess, our expectations of children, first and foremost, and what we want to see. And, you know, speaking from a lens of teaching in schools, I know even going through my, my undergrad teaching,
Danica See (17:45.092)
you
Amie Fabry (18:10.129)
And when people come out and assess you, like they're looking to say that you've got control of children ultimately, right? So that's really tricky to let go of and let go of some of that control, particularly if you've got a class of 20 to 30 children, being able to show up for all of them and be responsive to all of them and gentle and remember that they're all five or seven or three, you know, how do we manage all of these big emotions?
I'll never forget my very first day of teaching and I had this little guy who, you know, was in a pre-primary class, so he would have been five and he had big feelings that I wasn't prepared for and stood up in the middle of my first mat session and I kind of freaked out and went, what do I do now? And my...
wonderful educational assistant who wanted to be really helpful at the time tried to remove him and he clung to the desk and dragged it across the room and I was just sitting there going this is not what I thought my first day was going to go like. It is so hard and I think it's brilliant that we have people around like you who are able to walk alongside educators and to help them and
You know, as we're all human beings, right? Like I'm triggered by my own children's behaviors at times because some things are just big and they're hard to handle and we don't know always in the moment or our emotions are so big, you know, to be able to stop and think, how do I actually support this person right now? So I love that you're talking about your own self-regulation and doing that work as well. So tell me what led you to do this work? I know you yourself are an educator.
How did you end up getting into this work?
Danica See (19:59.972)
think going through uni, we never really received much in the way of how to support children through a lens of guidance rather than management. And that's another big part of what I do is trying to lead people down a guidance route where we can influence behaviour rather than control it in that typical behaviour management lens. So we didn't really get a lot of that through uni. So I think when I got into my very first classroom,
and I was a fresh doe-eyed graduate teacher and I landed myself in a school that used a behavior management program that I'm not going to mention the name of, but we had to use a behavior chart. And it was a reward system as well where we had to give out tokens for children when we noticed that they were acting in accordance with the school's values. And as a graduate teacher, I kind of felt like I had no voice.
And so I was using these systems and they just didn't feel right. They did not feel good for me. And I could see firsthand the impact that they were having on the children. I could see that they just didn't feel good about themselves when they were put on the behavior chart or when they could see that their peers were receiving their tokens and they weren't even though they were doing the same behaviors. And so I thought there's got to be a different way. I didn't last at that school.
beyond the year because it just wasn't the right cultural fit. But the school that I went into next is my forever school. I was there for 10 years, my daughter now goes there. And they showed me a different way of supporting behaviour in ways that actually felt good as the teacher, but also I could see that they felt good for the children. There was no shame, embarrassment or belittlement involved in it.
And then I started to really dig deep into what it meant to work with behaviour in terms of guidance. I had a brilliant mentor who really showed me the foundations of guidance. And I became really interested in it then because I could see that there was another way. From there, I went on mat leave with my first daughter and I was offered a role at one of the universities to tutor into their behaviour unit. And it was a whole body yes. So I gave that a shot.
Danica See (22:19.948)
And I could see firsthand again that the students that were coming in, were going, wow, I never knew that there was a way of working with behavior that meant that I could put the behavior charts and reward systems away. And I felt really excited then that I wasn't just impacting the children that were in my class, but I was impacting all of these students' future classes. And that was really exciting because when you get to see the future workforce for early years educators, no matter which context they end up in,
There are some of them that just end up so passionate about this and I can see why you've just, you know what it means to honor children as a whole being just drives me to no end to get into what it is that I'm doing. And then it was actually my mum that was like, you know, you're doing this at the uni, you could be doing this on a bigger level. And that's where little bloom came from. So she planted the seed and was like, okay, I'm going to put my big girl pants on and I'm going to see what I can do with this. can lead to something very special. And it really has, I think that's
my journey towards doing this work, what's led me here, is I felt firsthand, there's a different way. This doesn't feel good. I'm going to find out what does.
Amie Fabry (23:27.973)
That's so beautiful. What a great story. I think so many pioneers and leaders are really driven by something that brings them purpose, right? And you see a need, so you lean into it. But I love that your mom saw something in you and said, you can do this, right? We all need someone to believe in us. And sometimes it is someone else who sees something or says you can do it, and then you believe you can do it. And I think there's a lot of...
you know, correlation between how we might show up as the adults in children's lives to see them. But, you know, we can also do that for each other because at the end of the day, we're all human, right? And we actually can encourage and support each other. And that's so powerful. And I love that you're now doing this work because you're obviously having a huge impact by supporting and empowering educators to see
that there is a different way that we can walk alongside children without feeling that we have to control them because no one likes to feel controlled. And I think about even as an adult, some of the workplaces and schools that I've worked in where I felt that I was being controlled, I didn't feel like I could be myself. I wasn't comfortable. Whereas in contrast, when I found spaces where I felt like I could be myself,
And I didn't have to be like everybody else. wasn't being told what to do. And I could have my own ideas. Like, you you feel like you're more alive and there's more you can give and you do better work and you're more inspired and motivated and you know, actually enjoy what you're doing. So again, I think, you know, just as human beings, being able to connect rather than control is just such a powerful way to be alongside each other. Support learning, all of those things. So you are...
quite a remarkable leader, I think, in just having this conversation, particularly in the current climate, I'm gonna say, that, you know, I think, you know, I follow you on Instagram and some of the posts that you put forward are really inspiring. They also provoke people to think, which is courageous.
Amie Fabry (25:44.815)
because I think it's easy to just follow the status quo sometimes and it's easy to just go, well, this is what everyone else is saying. And at the moment, you know, a lot of the rhetoric around education in particular, not necessarily early years, but in the broader education landscape, we hear a lot about the right way to teach or how to get control of children because we're seeing all of these challenging behaviors surfacing. And, you know, if I go back to an earlier point, you mentioned that
behaviour as a sign of communication. you know, I'm thinking for people like you, I see you as a breath of fresh air that is contributing really positively to what I feel is a, can be a really damaging narrative to our profession, but also to children. I'm curious to know from you as a leader in this space who, from where I see like you are being courageous to actually say, well, what are we doing? Why are we doing it?
How do you feel about stepping into this space and provoking conversations, getting people to think, because it can be challenging, right? Like I'm assuming there's some challenges. So what are some of the challenges that, are you facing challenges doing this work? And if so, what might be some of those challenges?
Danica See (27:05.476)
So I laugh because my guiding mantra for 2024 and likely the rest of my life is to just do things scared. So you've hit the nail on the head that this work certainly has not come without its challenges at all. was really, I mean, I was sitting on my branding for a good three or four months.
before I even launched my Instagram page because I was so scared. Cause I thought, well, once I put a post out, I can't take it back. It's out there in the world now. And I finally took the plunge because my family and I came down with COVID and I was so sick that I just did not have the capacity to overthink things. And that's when I put my first Instagram post out. Hello world.
I am here. But there's been a lot of challenges and I mean, it fluctuates every week. There's some weeks where I think, I'm nailing this. I've got my big girl business pants on. I am crushing it, world domination. And then there are other weeks where I'm absolutely crippled by self-doubt, comparison, imposter syndrome. Who am I? I am one person. I don't know all of the things.
Why am I actually thinking that I have the capacity to make change? And they're two very conflicting polar opposite ends of the scale. And I think on a reasonable day, I would sit in the middle. And when I feel these imposter syndrome thoughts coming in about my self doubt or comparing myself to other people who are much further along their journey than I am.
When I have a wide window of tolerance and I can lean into that discomfort, I can see where it's coming from and I can see it's because that's the direction that I want to go in and that I want to offer all of the things to everybody. And I do have to lean really hard on courage. That's been the driving factor, particularly when I do make calls on social media.
Danica See (29:27.906)
that challenge dominant thinking. And so I think that there's been two really hard moments in social media that I have overcome now. And I didn't find them as challenging as I thought that I would. And I think that that sings volumes about the work that I've done with myself that I've been called out on social media. So one of them was one of my posts where I was talking about how it's time to move past behavior charts. And I had...
an American psychologist, who her whole shtick is to call people out on social media. And she'd shared my post and then basically ripped it to shreds. And I woke up, I was heavily pregnant. And I woke up to see her had shared my post and was calling me out. And I was really confronted by it. And then I kind of, what I do, I like to think I've got a pretty strong base of resilience, but when I hit hurdles, I tend to retreat and I go inwards.
And so I kind of went quiet for a little bit and I sat with why I was so confronted by it. And I thought, because this particular person was questioning my authenticity. And I actually reflected on it, reflected on my values and went, no, even if I knew that she was going to call me out on this, I still would have put the post out.
because it's still me staying incongruence with my values and what I believe in. One of my core values of Little Bloom is advocacy. And I am going to advocate for the lived experience of children. I don't care how much research says that behavior charts are effective ways of controlling behavior, they don't feel good. And I'm always going to honor children's experience. And then another thing that happened on social media was I had one of my reels where again, I was
trying to encourage people to move away from using stickers. People are very passionate about stickers as rewards to try and elicit desired behaviors from children. And it went viral on the wrong side of social media where people weren't making digs at the content. I've got the research around the content. I don't care if people don't agree with me, but they started making digs about me as a person. And that hurt. That was really, really hard for me to hear.
Danica See (31:45.76)
And that's the only reel that I've ever taken down because of backlash on social media, because there are people out there who are not going to agree with you. There are people who, when we're talking about behaviour, behaviour is actually a highly emotive thing to work with. People become really attached to their behaviour systems that they've got in their classroom and their behaviour systems actually form a really strong part of their teacher identity. And so can understand that when you come across
information on social media or where wherever it is that conflicts with your current practice, or you know, it brings out a bit of cognitive dissonance because it doesn't fit with what it is that you're doing. That's a natural response to have. But there are some people who, I think, take it personally, and then they go on the attack rather than to become curious and go, this doesn't fit with what I'm thinking. Where's the truth in what this person is saying? And while why do I have
Amie Fabry (32:35.995)
you
Danica See (32:44.268)
such a visceral response to this stranger on the internet telling me that stickers might not be the best way to support behavior. And I think that there are a lot of people that just aren't ready, unfortunately, for that conversation. So that is in itself a really hard piece of the puzzle to know. I'm not for everyone. I understand that. But when you've got people on the internet who advocate for practices that can be inherently damaging for children, that's really difficult.
Amie Fabry (33:15.265)
my gosh and you know I think the work that you're doing being in that public platform means that you know like I'm likening some of your experience to some of the educators that I work alongside who might say you know some of my colleagues have a difference of opinion but the work that you're doing is on a larger scale so you're
getting a, you you're getting backlash from America, where they might be just getting backlash from the person next door. It's really interesting, isn't it? Like just how people sit with or engage with someone with a different perspective. And I think I personally, I find that challenging as well. And not just on a personal level, you know, because it shows up in my work as well, but.
I think when I think about our profession...
Amie Fabry (34:15.025)
I guess I wish that we were more open to other perspectives to learn from each other. And you mentioned professional identity. do you think that's why some educators, researchers, professionals
respond perhaps in such a negative way to a different sub opinion? Like do you think it is because of their professional identity? Is it a fear? What do you think is going on there? Like I'm thinking how do we move out of that space where we just tear each other down or cancel it when we're out? Do you know what I mean? How do we get to a point perhaps where we can have a robust conversation because
I'm sure there's lots to learn from each other if we can have the conversations.
Danica See (35:09.29)
Yeah, that that is a very good question. I think there's probably two elements to it. So I think the first is your own personal beliefs and values that you bring into the classroom. So your values that you bring into the classroom may be somewhat different to your personal values, but you actually can't act outside of the values that you bring in with you and your beliefs. So if you're someone when we're talking about behaviour,
Amie Fabry (35:23.953)
Mm-hmm.
Danica See (35:38.222)
who believes that children will, again, in bunny ears, learn to behave because of external motivators, that's how you're going to try and support behaviour in the classroom. Whereas if you're somebody who believes that actually when children learn behaviours, it's mostly intrinsically driven and that we can use extrinsic measures as a tool, so I still don't think that we need to leave.
extrinsic measures out of the picture completely, but they're a piece of a greater puzzle. If you're somebody who thinks that they're a piece, but most of it comes from intrinsic motivation, you're going to work a lot differently. So I think that that's one element is the beliefs and the values that you have. But then I think the other one too is as a society, we think that we are, we're obsessed with the idea of evidence based research. And this is such a sticking point for me because I love researching, but
something that I always say to people when we're researching strategies to do with children's behavior is research favors observable data. And so when we're talking about behavior, the strategies that work are the strategies that decrease behavior. So your observable behaviors are decreasing. And that's how evidence-based research exists in the behavior world because
a certain strategy, so behaviour charts or reward systems work at decreasing observable behaviours. But what it does not measure is internalised behaviours. So we cannot measure how these strategies feel for children, because I think in education, research favours quantitative. So they want numbers, don't research, they don't prioritise qualitative data. So I think that some people see that as a bit like woo woo.
almost when we start talking about feelings, it's a little bit airy-fairy, but it is a really critical factor. Like I said before, like the way that we respond to behaviour really influences children relationships with themselves. And if we're only valuing strategies that work against children's developing sense of self, that's where we really come undone, I think. So I think they're the two pathways about why people are really resistant to new ideas, because they're really married to
Danica See (37:59.064)
the old way, I think, of doing things.
Amie Fabry (38:02.513)
Yeah, I definitely agree with you. So these are some real challenges that I think we all face, right? Because as a wider profession, and I'm including a whole range of professionals when I say that, if you're someone that works with children, whether you're a family, whether you're a professional in an education space beyond that, we want to have these conversations, right? Because the more we think and reflect on what we're doing and how we're supporting the people around us,
Like those conversations are fundamental so that we're always being intentional about what are we doing and who are we doing it with or for and why. But if we can't have a robust conversation and learn from each other and we're just gonna hold tight, like I think that's really challenging for any of us to deal with. You mentioned before doing some of your own self work and reflecting and you made a few comments that, you know, people are not always gonna agree with you. So how do you...
These are obviously some things, some learnings perhaps that you've taken or perhaps just your own self-reflection. Are these some of the tools that you use to help navigate these challenges that you face in your work?
Danica See (39:12.784)
I think so. think my main thing is constantly revisiting my why. Why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? and what are my values? And I'm really intimately aware of the values that I want to uphold with Little Bloom. So like I'd said before, one of my core values is advocacy. so
before how I was talking about the reel about rewards that went viral on the wrong side of social media. I can take constructive feedback well. I'm not going to get on the defense and say, I had no role in this, you're all wrong. I'm not gonna do that. when that reel, when I woke up to all of those comments and I took it down and I sat on it and thought, well, where's again, where's the truth in it? And I thought, okay, I would, my messaging.
I would still, I still believe in the same thing. I still believe that stickers, the way that they're traditionally used to elicit certain behaviours from children are not the most effective tool. I still stand by that. But what was off was how I was messaging that. So where's the truth? Okay, my messaging was off. It didn't land with my target audience. However, the message still remains the same. That in itself,
I think is one of the biggest gifts that that experience took, that I took from that experience, sorry, that I can reflect on it, see my role in it, what I can do to take a treasure away from an otherwise quite uncomfortable situation and move forward from it a little bit stronger. So if it happens again, I know that I'm gonna be okay. Think that that's, you we're talking a lot about having courage to be a leader and to put yourself out there.
I've had to revisit the true meaning of the word confidence, because I think that we think confident people just have this natural ability to do whatever it is that they're doing and execute it perfectly when actually it's not, it's going, okay, well, I'm going to take a risk and regardless of the outcome on the other side, I'm going to be okay. And I've really lent on that going, okay, having a business is hard, putting yourself out there is hard, calling out certain really ingrained strategies in education around behaviour is hard.
Danica See (41:35.448)
I'm going to take the risk. That's one of my values. And I'm going to be okay on the other side. I've got a really amazing community around me. Now we were talking before we hit record around Marigold teachers. And so the idea of having your community, your teacher community around you who helped to lift you up. I lean hard on those people when I'm having a really hard time finding people that are going through the exact same thing that can just make space for my feelings and say, well, that sucks. I'm here when you need me.
Do you want some advice? Do you just need to be heard? And leaning hard on those people. I think it's always gonna be really important, because there's gonna be a lot of times, even if you are in the classroom, you're practicing with children, you're a leader, you're someone on the outside who's running a business, you're an allied health professional, we can all feel like we're isolated and we're on our own islands. And there's real beauty in coming together with like-minded people.
Amie Fabry (42:32.923)
So true. That's, yeah, amazing advice actually, you know, for myself and others. I think leaning into your why, your values is so important. You know, like you're saying, it wasn't like it derailed you and you went, I don't know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. But actually I do know why I'm doing it because I'm so clear about my values and what I stand for and what I want this business to be doing. But I also love that you could
take some learning from it and you were talking about it as a gift and thinking about your own communication perhaps, how did I share that message or the actual idea itself stands and you can stand by that, what you're advocating for, but perhaps is there a different way I could have communicated that? I think that's really powerful too, because it's also quite easy to either fall apart and go, I'm clearly not doing a good job and I shouldn't be doing this. And that's when the imposter syndrome often kicks in and flares up.
Danica See (43:32.052)
wrong though. still, when I woke up and saw those comments, I was like, right, I am putting my business in the bin. I'm starting something new tomorrow. I still went down there. But the thing is I didn't get, I didn't get stuck there.
Amie Fabry (43:44.753)
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, and I think it's a real challenge. You know, it is hard. Like you said, it's hard to do to be a leader. You do have to put yourself out there. You do have to be vulnerable, right? To actually give something a go. Be bold enough to say, I'm gonna contribute to this conversation. I'm gonna provoke thinking, you know, and you are gonna get people that don't agree with you. So being able to navigate that is, is I think a skill when...
Danica See (43:57.624)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (44:13.713)
probably comes with a lot of practise and having some strategies, giving yourself the moment to feel what you feel. This is really hard. Maybe I will put in, but then, here's why I'm here. And if you stand by what you value, you can pull yourself out of the bin and...
Danica See (44:16.164)
Danica See (44:31.148)
Yeah. Could just put it in the recycling bin so you can take it out later.
Amie Fabry (44:33.68)
Bye!
Amie Fabry (44:37.457)
Yeah, the recycle bin, much nicer than the normal one. I also love that you're talking about community because I do also think, you know, in my experience, that's also really helpful, you know, to have people that you can have a cry to or just say, this isn't going to plan or this feels really hard or that was just really shit, you know, to actually be able to say, I don't know what I'm doing because I think those
You know, our communities are so important to help us see what we don't see in ourselves. You know, even if I think right back to, know, like your mum giving you the nudge, how you could do this. But also to be able to again, connect with over our shared human experience because nothing is perfect. Nothing just goes to plan all the time. And we're also stronger together, right? Like knowing that you've got people who have your back, who are
will still love you and accept you and value you and champion you even when you make mistakes. But even to remind you that you're not a complete failure when something doesn't work because that's the learning process too, right? It feels hard, but there's so much to learn through all of those challenging moments even when you're being trolled on Instagram.
Danica See (45:47.639)
Yeah.
Danica See (45:54.646)
Yeah, it's what we try and instill in children, right? That it's okay to make mistakes and that strengthens our brain. And I think sometimes we forget how hard it is to work with that mindset that, okay, I'm an adult, I've made a mistake, how can I overcome this? Like we expect it from children all the time. And I think that sometimes myself as well, I'm calling myself out here.
we can get a bit hypocritical about what we expect from children when we're not doing it ourselves.
Amie Fabry (46:29.714)
That is so true on so many levels, know, whether it's being brave enough to take a risk or try something new or whether it's around our behavior. You know, like I sometimes laugh because, and I'm guilty of this myself because I went to a workshop last week, but you know, we can expect children to sit for a long time, for example, and be really focused. But then like I'll run a workshop with adults and they're not focused and they're tired at the end of the day and they just want to chat while I'm
And you go, you know, this is just again, it's human experience, but we often do it actually expect more from our children and we can actually show up and do ourselves as adults. It's interesting, isn't it? I'm thinking, you know, you've unpacked so many things here around your challenges, how you might overcome some of them. What do you think if you sit back and think about your journey? What have been maybe the biggest learnings about being a leader?
or leadership and stepping into that space and role for you.
Danica See (47:31.304)
I think it's really been about having courage and a strong why. I think that they've been the two biggest things. Knowing that it's actually not for the faint-hearted, I didn't realize just how hard it would be when I started. And that it is so confronting on a personal level that you actually need to move past a lot of personal things to be able to show up in your business well.
Amie Fabry (47:38.022)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (47:48.497)
Yeah.
Danica See (48:00.962)
and also recognizing that I'm not for everyone. And that's okay. I don't need to be for everyone. know, when I first started out, before I'd launched, I was working with a branding coach who was running me through all of the things that I think that business coaches would typically run you through. know, who's your target audience? Think about, she got me to think about a scale.
of where people might sit. So the people on one end of the scale were really close-minded, resistant to unpacking their idea of behaviour. And then the people on the opposite end of the scale were people who were really well-versed in guidance, in the language of honouring children's rights, in working with children rather than against them. And they perhaps just wanted a couple more tools to add to their toolkit. And she said, have a think about that scale.
and where people are along that scale that you would like to work with. And it's the first time someone had actually said to me, you can choose who you work with and people can choose if they want to work with you as well. And that was really, I guess it was a big catalyst for me to start recognising that I don't want to work with everybody and not everybody's going to work with me and that's okay. Still kind of, I still get a little bit not offended but.
when people unfollow me on social media, I'm like, what did I say? It was one month that there were a lot of people, I don't know if Instagram were doing a clean out of bots, which I know they do, but there was a time where I got a lot of unfollows and I stood back and was like, why? What did I say wrong? Whereas now, I mean, I don't even recognize when people have unfollowed me because I've moved past that mindset of going,
I'm not for everybody. And if they've unfollowed me, then it means that they're not open to my ideas. And I'm probably better off without that challenge anyway.
Amie Fabry (50:01.657)
Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm thinking about, you know, what the advice might be for people who are in leadership roles. And I say that loosely because not everyone is in a designated role. You know, whether you work in policy or whether you work as an educator alongside children, you can be a leader without a title. And I personally believe it's about identifying where there's
where there's an opportunity or possibility to support and enhance, you know, people or processes, whatever it might be. So you might be stepping forward to lead as an educator, or you might be stepping forward to lead and start a new business like you've done. So there's a whole suite of leaders, I think, that work directly or indirectly with our young learners. In terms of that view of not being for everybody,
What advice would you have for people who might be not necessarily running a business but leading and what could they perhaps take away?
Danica See (51:08.612)
Hmm, that is a good question. When you came on my podcast, so we were talking around leadership in the early years, I really like how you were framing it as champions and being champions of the early years or champions in the early years. And I think maybe the biggest thing is recognizing that it's being able to tease out the differences between what's a you thing and what's a them thing.
been a really big learning for me this year is when people don't vibe with me or my messaging, it's actually not a me thing. It's a them thing. And it doesn't mean that anybody's at fault. It's just not a good fit. And so I think that that's been a really big thing and being able to recognise it's okay. It's confronting, but it's okay in the grand scheme of things.
You're going to be okay if people don't vibe with you.
Amie Fabry (52:07.919)
Yeah, I think that's a really powerful lesson actually and it's probably one that I keep learning as well that everybody is different right and whether it's a learning about how you communicate or whether it's just reflecting on actually no I still stand by what I'm saying and doing because it's driven by a clear purpose but not everybody is going to love you and not everyone is going to just go that's a great yes let's just I think that's really worth
noting, you know, whether it's your colleagues or whether you're really trying to be an advocate in a more public forum, not everyone is going to be your cup of tea just and you're not going to be everyone else's cup of tea. So I think that's a really good lesson just because we can fall into the trap of taking everything personally. But, you know, you don't want to be like a politician who just says the right thing to please everybody because then you don't really stand for anything else. So I think that's, I think that is a good, good lesson.
Thank you so much for sharing all of your wonderful wisdom. Where can people connect with you or find out more about the work you do or tap into you, ask questions.
Danica See (53:16.004)
I am pretty active on my Instagram. That's probably the best place to find me. And then you can familiarise yourself with the rants that we've been talking about that I do quite often with my spicy posts that I put out there calling out certain things. No, for the most part, I think it's more, I put a lot of things to reflect on and I share a lot of strategies on there as well. But I think that there's a lot of people on Instagram in the behaviour space who share a lot of strategies.
My offerings look a little bit different to that because I know that they're not the most important thing. The most important thing is your philosophy, the foundations of your practice. And I like people to know what they're getting into. If they want to work with me, they know that that's what they're going to get. So that's a lot of what I offer. So I'm on Instagram at littlebloom.consultancy. I'm also on LinkedIn, but I am not nearly as active on there as I should be.
And I think that that's really, I've got a website as well where you can see all of my offerings. I've got a podcast, The Bloom Room, where I interview amazing people such as yourself. Though I'm gonna put my big girl pants on and start doing some solo ones, which is terrifying. But I think, yeah, Instagram and the podcast are the best places to familiarize yourself with my work.
Amie Fabry (54:30.743)
Amazing. Thank you so much. It was such a joy to talk to you as it always is. Thank you for joining me today.
Danica See (54:38.42)
thank you for inviting me on, Amie It has been a delight.
