S1E7 - Emma Gentle: Emotional Intelligence

How might our own childhood experiences and limiting beliefs influence our interactions with children in educational settings? In what ways can we address and transform these influences to become more effective educators?

Considering the challenges of burnout and the pursuit of perfectionism in education, what strategies can educators implement to protect their energy and maintain emotional well-being while fostering a supportive learning environment?

In this episode, Dr. Amie Fabry engages in a compelling conversation with Emma Gentle, an Emotional Intelligence Coach, Education Consultant, and former Assistant Principal. Emma shares her journey from classroom teaching to coaching, emphasizing the transformative power of emotional intelligence in both personal and professional realms. She discusses the significance of self-awareness, co-regulation, and understanding one’s own upbringing in shaping interactions with children. Emma also delves into the challenges educators face, such as burnout and perfectionism, and offers insights into overcoming limiting beliefs and the importance of continuous self-reflection. The discussion highlights the profound impact that emotionally intelligent educators can have on future generations.

Emma Gentle is an Emotional Intelligence Coach, Education Consultant, and former Assistant Principal with over 14 years of experience in the education sector. Beginning her career as a primary school teacher, Emma quickly advanced to leadership roles, including Assistant Principal, where she honed her skills in mentoring and coaching educators. Her passion for personal and professional development led her to become certified in various disciplines, including Emotional Intelligence assessments and Dare to Lead training. Emma’s work focuses on empowering educators and parents to develop self-awareness, regulate emotions, and create supportive environments for children. She is also a mother, bringing a personal perspective to her professional endeavors.

Where to Find Emma Gentle

• Facebook: Emma Gentle Coaching

• Instagram: @em_gentle

• LinkedIn: Emma Gentle

• ClassCover Learn Course: Emotional Intelligence for Educators

Amie Fabry (00:08)

Hello everyone and thank you for joining me on the Leading the Early Years for the Future podcast. I am Dr. Amie Fabry and I'm really looking forward to today's conversation with Emma Gentle. Emma is a former teacher and assistant principal who now works as an emotional intelligence coach, an education consultant and she is a self-confessed personal and professional development junkie, which I love because I am too.

Em (00:31)

you

Amie Fabry (00:32)

is also a mum and she's growing a human as we speak. Thank you for joining us today.

Em (00:40)

It's absolute pleasure.

Amie Fabry (00:42)

Now before we dive in, I'd love to know outside of the amazing work that you do, do you have a hidden talent? Perhaps something that people may not know about you, maybe they do. It might just be something that you're really interested in or something that brings you joy outside of your work.

Em (01:00)

Yeah, so actually since starting my business, I have learned about human design. I'm not sure if you're across that, but I am a manifesting generator and it makes a lot of sense because I like to have my fingers in lots of pies. So I've done lots of different things over the years, but I have ridden horses all my life. And before I had my first order, Raph in 2021.

I was training my dressage pony to state and national level. So that took up a lot of my time outside of teaching. It was sort of like another full-time job, but I'm also an avid fisher woman. I can hunt with a compound bow. I can ride motorbikes and wakeboard and all these other things because I just love to learn new things and embark on adventures. And my partner is very much the same.

There's lots of different things that I like to do outside of work.

Amie Fabry (02:01)

That's amazing. What an incredible skill set. love, I can see that you've got a real, you know, love of learning and what incredible ways to do that. And I love that you can wrangle animals as well as, you know, grow humans and, you know, nurture and educate children and young people. That's, that's really remarkable.

Em (02:19)

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (02:20)

Now, let's dive into the early years. Obviously, that's a big focus of this podcast. And I know you don't work exclusively in the early years, but I'd really love to just hear your thoughts based on your experience and your knowledge base as well and the work you do, particularly in emotional intelligence, which is so important. But what are your thoughts on the early years as an educator, a leader, a mom? What are your thoughts on the early years and why they might be so fundamental in our lives?

Em (02:50)

My first thought is that why don't we all know everything about the early years? I couldn't believe that when I started my business two years ago that, you know, I lacked so much knowledge about early years. And it wasn't until I had my own daughter in 2021 that I started to learn about, you know, you get bombarded as a new mom with.

all the sleep stuff and how to read your baby and like what's developmentally appropriate and all these things. And I started off using approaches that were out of alignment with my beliefs. And I think that caused me a lot of anxiety. And then I came across a Lailstone and the beautiful work of aware parenting and started to learn so much about connected parenting and attachment and you know, all these things, emotional intelligence that I really had not much.

idea about and that completely changed the way then that I started seeing children and that's sort of what sparked, you know, the idea for my business because I was so passionate about being able to empower educators to understand all of this stuff and yeah, change the way that we're doing things so that we are working alongside children and meeting them where they're at in their development. yeah, even though I taught

year one, two for five years of my life, I reflect now and think, I wish I had have had more knowledge about temperament and attachment and regulation and emotions and what's developmentally appropriate. And so that's now a huge part of my work and why I love emotional intelligence and working with parents and teachers is so that they can understand how children's brains work and how we need to work with them and not against them.

Amie Fabry (04:40)

Yeah, amazing. So on that note, tell us more about the work that you do and I guess even what it is you do, how are you supporting educators and parents and families? And also, maybe you can share some insights about the shifts that you see, like, you know, how does this work impact those educators and families and ultimately our children?

Em (05:04)

Yeah, so I was in the education system, all I have been for 14 years. I started off as a teacher's aide and enrolled in uni two weeks later to become a primary teacher because I fell in love with it. And then I taught in primary classrooms. And then before I had my daughter, I was an assistant principal. So that's sort of like my education career. And then the last two years I started my own business. So now I'm an emotional intelligence coach. I'm a level one coach.

And I'm also certified with six seconds as an EQ assessor. So I can do emotional intelligence assessments with leaders and parents and teachers and things like that. If some people love the hard copy data, especially leaders and teachers. So those assessments can be quite popular with them. I'm also very street trained and dare to lead trained. So as I mentioned earlier, I do love to learn and upskill and just continue to further.

my knowledge and embed that in practice. And most recently I became a circular security parenting facilitator. I'm really, I really wanted to continue to upskill around attachment because I felt like that was a bit of a gap in my knowledge. But it's funny when you do these things, you think you're going to walk away with sometimes all of this new information, but it was a really nice affirmation of the work I'm already doing.

with parents and teachers around emotional intelligence and being with and that sort of thing. So yeah, so now I help parents and teachers with their emotional intelligence so that they can firstly understand themselves, become more self-aware so that they can change their behavior, regulate their emotions, self-regulate. I'm also about to be a certified nervous system coach, which is what I'm really excited about because

So much of my work with teachers is around the nervous system and obviously it's so closely linked to emotional regulation, which I help parents with a lot. yeah, really it's about helping people understand their own behavior and emotions so that then they can support their children's or their students in their classroom.

Amie Fabry (07:21)

Amazing. What an incredible list of qualifications you have.

Em (07:25)

I'm like, I'm not doing anymore. think I'm, look, I think some of that definitely stems from, and this is something I've learned about myself since starting a business, is that one of my limiting beliefs growing up was that I wasn't academic enough or that I wasn't smart enough. And so I can tend to think that I have to do, you know, a course or get a certification to be, you know.

fully up to date. But I also think that for some people and for myself definitely that when someone is qualified or has a certification, it builds more trust and you know, in both yourself and the people that you're working with because there is so much information out there and it's easy to think that you can just read a book and then you're qualified in something and you can teach someone else. But I...

Yeah, I do believe that it's a mix between having the practice wisdom of just life and doing it yourself, know, embodying it, but also knowing the evidence and the research behind it is something that's important to me.

Amie Fabry (08:32)

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree on limiting beliefs, also, you know, really understanding, I think, the research that sits behind good practice and having that connection between not only what we might, like, sometimes I think good practice feels intuitive and it's common sense and you see the impact of that directly on the people that you're working with. But it is really, I think, important and affirming to have a good understanding of the evidence that might sit behind.

why we know this works and why this is effective. And that's for a whole range of reasons. Can we just circle back quickly to your work in emotional intelligence? I mean, I completely understand why you're working with families and educators to help them to self-regulate and to be more connected to their own nervous system and how they're feeling and thinking.

What impact does that have on the children, whether it's their own children in their family or whether it's the children in the classroom or the early learning centre?

Em (09:31)

Yeah, so we know that and this is interesting because as a teacher, I knew nothing about regulation or co regulation or what any of that was. And so when I started to learn more about it, I was absolutely mind blown. And I thought, why do we not know this when we are, you know, we are the we create the weather in our classrooms, and we do that by energy and co regulation. And so if we cannot be a balanced

regulated adult for a child because their prefrontal cortex is not developed and they don't have the ability to self-regulate, especially if you're working in early years, then we have to understand that so that we can be that balanced self for them when they do have these behaviors or these big emotions. So it's the one thing that I want every educator to understand, even if they're teaching secondary children, because they're still children.

And that part of the brain doesn't fully develop as you know, until sometimes early adulthood. So, and I think that because we are a society that places so much of the onus of behavior on children, rather than the adult, then that's what we've traditionally done in schools. Whereas now we know that really like we're the anchor, we're the person that's guiding the child in front of us. So.

We need to know how to regulate so that we can lend our beautiful, balanced nervous system to the child so that they can then regulate as well.

Amie Fabry (11:06)

Yeah, amazing. Your work is so important and I think too, you know, as you mentioned, like as educators, we often don't get enough exposure to this or have the opportunity to dive really deeply into what that looks like for us as human beings, but also the impact it has on our children. And I think, you know, just having that deeper understanding of where they're at developmentally. But also what I love is that you're bringing that emotional tone to the forefront of what we're thinking about in terms of.

So it's not just about, you know, the instruction or the guidance or the rules that you set around behavior, but actually being present and being compassionate and having some empathy for children and how we ourselves can show up as regulated people is going to help them. And, know, why I think this work is so profound is because, you know, it has the potential to change our future generations, you know, and to actually give children

the opportunity to learn to solve problems, to have compassion for themselves and for other people. And I think that's something that our whole society would benefit so much from, you know, to be able to support our educators and families to understand this and do this as adults right now, but also the impact that's going to have for these children and the skillset it's going to provide them throughout life is just so profound. Thank you for the work you do. It's really, really incredible.

Em (12:23)

Mm.

honestly...

Amie Fabry (12:33)

I'm sorry.

Em (12:36)

It gives me shivers because I find it so hard to articulate often into like what building your own emotional intelligence is going to do for you because it is so profound and genuinely life changing and not to use those words as buzzwords, but genuinely, you know, in the short span of three years, it's completely changed the person I am. It's completely changed the lens in which I see myself and other people and children and

Like I just can't unsee it now. I can't go back to the way that I was before building my own emotional intelligence. And, you know, it has greatly reduced my stress because and increased my confidence so much and just knowing in myself, like I've never, I've never trusted myself more in my entire life. And it's because I understand myself now and I know myself and I understand how.

my upbringing shaped the way that I viewed the world. And that's what motivates me so much because I know how much your childhood shapes the way that you then go and live your life and see the world. And so if we can be these beautiful, balanced adults for our children in the classroom and at home, then they are free. Our children are free to grow up, know, destined to who they're meant to be. And we don't have to put any of our stuff onto them.

huge underlying motivator as to why I love doing this work, but My god, is it challenging this week? I'm going through so many emotions my three-year-old. Holy moly like I'm talking huge huge behaviors that people would see as Defiant and naughty and like would just want to shut them down like I'm spending an hour overnight Just holding space for her crying and screaming and kicking and rolling around on the floor

because she's moving from her comforter that she's always had to some new special friends that are going to bed with her and all the emotions are coming out. like, when you're getting up at 2 AM in the morning and you're 28 weeks pregnant and you have to do that. Like, gosh, it takes some self control and a lot of regulation, but I'm like, this is all the work that I've done, right? To be able to do this. And it's not something that happens overnight. takes.

constant learning and I'll never not be working on my own emotional intelligence.

Amie Fabry (15:02)

Yeah, it's so true. And I think, you know, it's easy as someone who knows stuff to for other people, I think, to see that you've got it all together and you've got all the answers and things just work really smoothly. And you know, like, do you know, one of the greatest learnings I ever experienced was going from being an early childhood educator and you know, my kindy class, you know, I had 28, four year olds and

Em (15:15)

I don't have it all together. my God, no way.

Amie Fabry (15:31)

it was relatively easy and I know, you know, that sounds a bit arrogant to say, but you know, like I actually found that role quite easy to do. You know, there was always some challenges, it's not completely easy, but I felt like I was, knew what I was doing, I guess is probably the right way to put it. And then I had my own children and I was like, this is going to be a walk in the park. Whoa, no, it was not. It was like, my goodness, I used to have parents come in and say,

Em (15:48)

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (15:57)

I have one at home. don't know how you do this with 28 of them. And I'd be like, it's probably just because, I'm an early childhood qualified teacher. know what I'm doing. And then I had, you know, my own and I was like, this little person's like a firecracker. She just doesn't stop. And how do I deal with all this? So yeah, it is, it's an ongoing learning journey for all of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think the key is to be constantly learning, right? Because

Em (16:15)

It's totally awesome.

Yes.

Amie Fabry (16:22)

We don't have all the answers and sometimes what works in one moment doesn't work again and we do have to keep reflecting on how am I showing up and how am I looking after myself too? And I think, you know, often as adults we don't do that very well, you know, to connect in with how am I going and what do I need so that I can have a chance to regulate my own emotions and how I'm going to then support.

you know, these little people. It is really tough and it's still tough. I've got a 10 and 12 year old and it's still tough. There's still some big emotions.

Em (16:55)

I

know. Lael says to me, yes, wait till you get to teenagers. And I'm like, gosh, hopefully I've had a little bit more practice. I will have a bit more practice between now and then. yeah, like your wellbeing is inextricably linked with your ability to be able to self-regulate. And so that is always like a starting point when I'm talking to educators, especially, you know, if your wellbeing is non-existent or just not on track.

Amie Fabry (17:01)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Em (17:20)

then your capacity to self-regulate will just be so low. Your resilience will be so low. So it's definitely something you have to focus on. But yeah, like I was saying before too, it's always about learning. And I really want to emphasize like to learn about yourself. You don't have to be reading books about strategies and like everyone, especially educators want those cherry on top strategies, I call them that.

can work but don't work unless you actually do the work on yourself first. So that's the work that's really important.

Amie Fabry (17:53)

So true, it's so true and I think it's the case for whatever you're learning, right? You've got to actually be able to connect in and reflect on how am I showing up and what am I thinking about and what are my actions like? Otherwise, you you can read everything and it's not going to change anything. Absolutely. Yeah, you talked before about having some of your own limiting beliefs going into this work.

Em (17:55)

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Amie Fabry (18:17)

Have you experienced any other challenges, know, shifting from being an educator and a school leader, you know, into starting your business and, and bringing, I guess, you know, you are a really fresh voice in this space. There are others like Lael But, you know, I'm assuming, takes a bit of courage to kind of step out into a new area. Put yourself out there. I know you're very active on social media and that kind of thing. But have you experienced any other challenges in stepping into this work?

Em (18:47)

Yeah, definitely. think starting your business is, I'm a quick mover. So when I just decide to do something, I just do it and I just dive head first in and that's just how I roll. So I'm definitely prone to burnout and I'm learning how to work with sort of like.

human design type and manage my energy, protect my energy and sort of know how I want to show up in my business. Which is why I love business because honestly it just never stops and you keep growing and growing and that's why I love it. But definitely comparing myself to others when I started was huge but one of the huge things for me was overcoming my fear of public speaking and you probably don't think that I had a fear around public speaking because

I've a hot gas and I do show up on socials and things like that. you know, growing up, I had trauma at high school from some experiences and that really scarred me. And I, I think was led to believe, or I believe that I just could never do it. And that I used to say things like, I would rather die than do that. Or you couldn't pay me a million dollars to do that. within the first six months of starting my business,

I was asked to speak at the national education summit in Melbourne. And I remember a voice noting Lyle being like, my God, this thing has happened, but I just don't know if I can say yes. Like I'm absolutely shitting myself. And she was like, this is just part of the work, right? Like, what if you could get curious and just say yes and then feel the fear and do it anyway. And I was like, my God. Okay. So yeah, because I did that and because it was on such a big level.

It was just the first huge piece of evidence to rewrite that story and that limiting belief that I couldn't do it. And so those challenges have popped up in the sense of then people would listen to the podcast and say, would you like to run some professional development for us? And I'd be like, yeah, sure. And then I'd be like, so who's going to teach me how to run professional development? Because I don't know how to do that.

So the whole time, like, that's why the last two years have been so insane because people have asked me to do things and I've just said yes and felt the fear and done it anyway. And so I just think that those types of challenges are always going to be present in your business, but that's what uplevels your life essentially. And that's how you impact people. And that's why I started the business was to impact people and to support people. So yeah, that was definitely a challenge. Now I'm, I feel

which only two years and I feel lucky to not really sit in that comparison mindset as much anymore. And I just think it's through, you know, that repetition of rewiring the brain of what you actually think about. So I've done a lot of belief work and that's what I help parents and teachers with as well around just like what am I making things mean and trusting the universe and trusting myself and that sort of thing. So yeah, I...

I think the more that you do it, the easier it gets. But yeah, the other big challenge is not business-wise, but in becoming a mom, the biggest thing is that I beat myself up for not being a perfect parent. And I think for a while I wanted to be the perfect parent. didn't want to, especially when you know about emotional intelligence and then you snap at your child or you can't hold space or something goes a bit orry, which...

absolutely happens, it gets that like, knowing that I can't be a perfect parent because that doesn't exist. And often that's from childhood wounds. So then I go back and do some inner work and some reparenting and stuff like that. And yeah, I'm able to move through, but as I go along, I'm much more self compassionate. And that was a huge reason why I wanted to do Dare to Lead training because I love Brené Brown's work and being able to

Understand that leadership too is a mindset, I think, not a role or a position and that anyone can lead. Like I think as mothers and parents, we lead our children and our families every single day. yeah, that perfectionist mindset is definitely something that has been quite a big challenge in that area.

Amie Fabry (23:05)

I can relate to everything you're saying. I think that's been a similar journey for me as well. know, everything from comparing yourself to others, which is not helpful at all. you know, kind of just getting new opportunities, but going, my God, how do I do this? And trying to just find some courage and step into it.

Em (23:09)

Hahaha!

you

Amie Fabry (23:30)

you know, I totally resonates everything that you're saying. And also, I guess the practice does make it a little bit easier. But I love that you're talking about self compassion because I think, you know, again, it links back to what we were talking about earlier, but actually being aware of how you're feeling and what's going on for you, but being kind to yourself. I don't think we're very good at doing that. And I think the more...

we talk about it and it becomes normal and not selfish, you know, and it's not the, well, I'm just going off to the day spa, but actually being able to sit with feelings and recognize, you know, what do I need? You know, what would, what would a really kind, caring friend say to me right now? And how, how can I have my own back? You know, I think is, is so important. It's definitely a space that I'm doing a lot more reading up about because I'm not always that kind to myself.

So I love that you mentioned all that, because I think, whether you're running a business or, you know, I think a lot of the listeners on this podcast will range from working in research and policy to running businesses and being consultants, but also to be being educators. And I think, you know, it doesn't matter what your role is. We all do have to look after ourselves and we do have to face some fears sometimes, you know, whether we're advocating and putting out a message and creating conversation like you're doing around.

intelligence. You know, it does sometimes come with a bit of uncertainty and a bit of fear, especially if you haven't done it before or you haven't done that exact thing before.

Em (24:58)

Yeah. and this is why the Amie the first thing that I encourage people to do, which, you know, I'm a bit like a bull at a gate. So I'm like, we're not going to muck about, I'm going to tell you exactly what's going to help you. You can take it or leave it, but in a child work and reparenting is the, like the most potent thing that I've ever done for myself. And that's what allowed me to really understand.

why I show up the way that I do now as an adult and just understand that I'm actually just still little in an adult body. that often little wants to jump in the driver's seat. And that's where when you are emotionally intelligent, you're able to take back the steering wheel and go, I see you, I hear you, I acknowledge you little but you need to be in the chair in the back seat. And I'm the driver because I'm wise woman So that work is like uber powerful.

for educators in the classroom who continue to feel either the shame or the guilt or any of those unpleasant emotions to really understand that often it's those little parts of us that are popping up. And when we try and push them away, they don't go away. And we keep receiving lessons from the universe to try and learn about them and get curious about them.

And when we actually do just let them in and see them for who they are, those parts, there's no good or bad parts. We acknowledge them and that's what helps us then heal from our childhoods if we need to, also, well, just everyone has things to heal from, right? Because we've grown up, you know, and we all grow up with scars and it doesn't matter how old we were when we got them, like even as young adults, but yeah, the more we try and shy away from those rather than trying to understand that.

they're the things that shape who we are and we let them in, then it's just like emotions. doesn't matter what comes your way or what feeling pops up. You know that you have the skills and the tools to be compassionate and to acknowledge that part of you so that then you can move through it. And that it's just the most powerful work that you can ever do on yourself.

Amie Fabry (27:05)

Yeah, absolutely incredible. I'm thinking too, you were talking before about, you know, I think this work that you're talking about diving into the inner child and re-parenting, connecting with, you know, previous traumas, no matter how big or small they are.

we've all had challenges that shape how we think about ourselves and how we judge ourselves, I think, and the shame that comes with making a mistake. And, you know, I'm a recovering perfectionist, which I tell everybody. So I completely agree with this. And this has been my own journey as well. I'm also thinking though about you were talking before about energy and protecting your energy. And I'm thinking about particularly a lot of the educators and leaders and directors who are in our services and schools who are really at the moment, I think struggling with a lot of burnout.

So, you know, if they're leading, not only connecting with themselves and how can they show up, you know, even though this is challenging, and I think we've talked a lot about that, but what kind of advice do you have, you know, and what works for you? I know won't necessarily work for others, but do you have any thoughts or advice around how you protect your energy and how you might actually avoid burnout? Or if you know you're burning out, what can you do to kind of pull yourself out before you get too far down the hole?

Em (27:50)

Mm.

Yeah, see, this is where the self awareness piece of emotional intelligence comes in. Because when you are so self aware and you know yourself inside and out, then you're, you know, you're going to pick up on those little warning signs that you get before you end up down that, you know, burnout rabbit hole, I suppose. So really trying to learn more about yourself. So how do you like to operate? Like what are your non negotiables throughout the week? And are you actually upholding them?

Are you setting boundaries around those? Why can you not set boundaries? Is it because you have some wounds from growing up or that you weren't able to learn how to set boundaries? Because so many of us weren't taught how to set a boundary or how to actually put ourselves first and look after ourselves. So that's something now that we're learning as adults. And that's why that, you know, inner child work and re-parenting work is so powerful because we...

deserve to get our own needs met. we, many of us, we're not taught how to meet our own needs or get our needs met. And I think that that is something that, you know, leads educators and leaders into burnout because they are trying to be a perfectionist or they're trying to prove something or, so this is where that self-awareness piece just, you know, can really change things for you. But protecting your energy is really about

thinking about what are you taking on in your role that actually has nothing to do with you. Because so I say it so much, especially from working with grads for a fair few years now, in that they are making everything mean something about themselves when most of the time it's got nothing to do with them. And that drains your energy so much because you're thinking about all these different scenarios and what people think and you know, if you're doing things right and sure.

We all have a little bit of that when we come, you know, come to our reflective practice. But if we are taking on other people's opinions and biases and problems that have nothing to do with us, that is a huge energy drainer. And so in being able to build your own self-awareness and your ability to self-regulate, you know, your emotions and your nervous system, that can help you really give back your energy because you're not leaking it on all of these things that.

don't actually matter.

Amie Fabry (30:46)

So I wanna pick up on a point you raised earlier about leadership not necessarily being about a role, which I completely agree with. me, leadership is very much a practice. It can be a role, but it's a practice that anybody can embody if they want to, I think. curious to know from experience how you kind of describe leadership or even some key learnings around leadership that you've taken away.

Em (31:15)

I feel like it depends on in terms of school leadership to the school that you're in, but the really positive examples of leadership that I've seen have been from leaders who are emotionally intelligent because they understand themselves. They've got that self-awareness. So they understand themselves and others, which means they can read a room. They can understand how other

people might feel in different situations, so they go about it the right way. They are able to regulate, so they're not having cheap shots at people during conversations. And I think this is a really big part in schools that needs some work, to be honest. And this is why I love Dare to Lead and Brene Brown's work and work of many other people in this area at the moment. But...

we really need to learn how to have conversations, know, respectful conversations, because often it becomes a critical or harsh conversation that could have been completely avoided if we had have just known how to open the communication lines. But the thing with communication is that and social skills in terms of emotional intelligence, if we are working with people who

are lacking in those areas, then sometimes they don't receive things well. They do make it mean something personal about them, even though it's not. And sometimes we can't control that, but that's why we need to be able to regulate and also be self-aware and ask ourselves like, what role am I playing in this at the moment? You know, like, how am I showing up? What am I doing? And really looking inward first before looking at the other person. And that's the other thing I've learned around self-compassion and

leadership is really not assuming and not assuming, you know, what's going on for the other person, but rather finding out what's going on for the other person. Because often when we come from that compassionate lens, and we ask them what's going on for them, and then they all of a sudden tell us that, you know, I've known their dog died, or their partner's gonna leave them or they haven't slept well for two weeks because they're toddlers up, then it's like, well, that explains.

you know, some of that behaviour, but it requires people to be vulnerable and emotionally intelligent and self compassionate. And I think that they're all the qualities that make up really great leadership.

Amie Fabry (33:39)

Yeah amazing, I love that so much and I think you know a lot of the work that I do working with leaders you know we still have this hangover I'm going to call it of you know a leader is someone who is a bit like a dictator you know has all the answers or just tells everyone what they want them to do all the time and I think that really unfortunately is still a strong leadership model sometimes in our schools and so people don't want to be a leader because they don't want to be that kind of leader.

Em (33:56)

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (34:08)

So I love that you're talking about, you know, actually, I mean, compassion and empathy and understanding what other people are going through because, you know, even at a societal level, you know, you only have to get on social media to see how quick people are to judge each other. And, you know, people can be really nasty because they only see things through their own lens. So I think, you know, from a leadership lens, when we can actually try to understand other people,

Em (34:09)

Yes.

Amie Fabry (34:37)

Then we create space for conversation and for from each other. And you you mentioned the leader having what's their role to play. Again, I think, you know, it's not just about, well, I've given the information, it's up to them. But actually, how am I really showing up to support this person is really shifts, I think, the way we think about leaders and what their role is. I love that. And I think the more we have leaders who are in it, then

Em (35:00)

Yes.

Amie Fabry (35:04)

other people might be more compassionate. You know, it's kind of that you follow what is being modeled to you perhaps that we then might become more self compassionate, compassionate for other people. And that's obviously going to have a huge impact on our children too. But yeah, so, so important. Do you have any advice for people who are leading no matter what level, no matter what role, you know, people who are

Em (35:12)

Mm.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (35:30)

thinking I really want to do something or I can see there's a need and there's a gap. And, you know, I'm a huge fan of Brene as well. And, you know, she describes leadership as noticing where there's potential, you know, to improve like or support people and systems and but having the courage to do that. So do you have any advice for people who are either leading, aspiring to lead and, you know, something's holding them back? Do you have any advice for them?

Em (36:00)

Of course, build your emotional intelligence. That's the number one skill that you need, your leadership. absolutely start to dive into, you know, your own stories and how you show up from a really non-biased perspective. Like when you start to learn more about yourself and how to regulate, you can become this person who sort of removes yourself from what's going on day to day. you know, being that

Amie Fabry (36:04)

Of course.

Em (36:27)

curious lens of like, that's really interesting. Instead of beating myself up about, I just did that thing again, or I couldn't be a leader because I do that. It's like, how can you zoom out and be like the observer and be like, I wonder why I'm doing that or showing up that way. Or, you know, just getting curious about the way that you show up with your behavior and your emotions so that you can come at it from that self compassionate lens and learn about why you might be doing that.

And most of the time it's through safety. It's a protective mechanism. Like the ego's there to protect us. you know, none of us want to fail. None of us want to make mistakes. None of us want to not know the answer. And I think a lot of aspiring leaders think that they have to go into leadership positions with all the answers and to know how to do everything. But it's quite the opposite. Like how great is it having a leader that says, actually, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll go and find out and come back to you or

Hey, I don't know the solution to this problem. How about we all brainstorm together? Because it's about, like you said, being with and sitting beside each other. It's those, know, like Ben Crow talks about horizontal relationships rather than vertical top-down leadership, which I love. And there has to be that element of respect, but when you respect yourself, other people will respect you. You know, when you can have a really respectful and upfront conversation, people will respect that. Like people want to hear.

Amie Fabry (37:25)

Yeah.

Em (37:53)

the hard things sometimes, and that's part of leadership. So all of those skills are, you know, able to be developed. Emotional intelligence is a skill set that is not, you know, set in stone. Everyone can develop it. And I think that's just why it's so powerful for leadership.

Amie Fabry (38:13)

That's beautiful advice and I think too gives people so much agency you know like when you feel a bit like what can I do and and again I know leaders who will say I want to do this but I can't for whatever reason but to actually focus on yourself like everyone can do that so I think that's a really good starting point for so many leaders whether you're experienced or not but actually turning in because we all are agents of our own lives so

That's really beautiful advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. Last question. What are you most excited about, you know, in terms of the future and particularly thinking about young children and what might be possible for them, how collectively might, you know, make the world a better place for them and enable them to thrive as human beings.

Em (38:58)

Well, I'm excited to birth my own second little human in February. I can't wait to meet him. We're having a little boy, so I'm very excited for that. In terms of my business, I love what I'm already offering. I have three signature courses. One is the Emotionally Intelligent Educator, which is for teachers and leaders to build emotional intelligence and be able to teach social and emotional learning in the classroom as well.

Amie Fabry (39:03)

Let's see.

Congratulations.

Em (39:24)

And then I have the guide beside, is a course for teachers aides because they get left out and they need to know all of this wonderful stuff as well around emotional intelligence and supporting behavior non-punitively. So I have a beautiful course for them. We've had 50 teachers aides go through that so far. And then also TGM grow, which is my signature course for pre-service and graduate teachers. That's been running for just under two years and we've had yeah, nearly

380 through that. that those three things are like the all of my life's work so far compiled into how to help educators and leaders and support stuff. So I'm really excited to continue to bring that work into the world, but I am really loving diving deeper into emotional intelligence and parenting. You know, being a younger parent or early parent myself with a three year old.

and one on the way. And that was sort of my idea of doing Circle of Security to really deepen my understanding around attachment. But I'm really passionate about empowering women and mums to build their own emotional intelligence and learn more about themselves so that they can show up as that leader in their own household. Because we do bear the weight of many things and...

It can be such a challenging role sometimes, even though we love it so much, it doesn't mean it's not hard. And I honestly think that being an emotionally intelligent woman and mom absolutely just changes your life in every area. So I'm keen to move more into that space in helping moms. And I love business. I really do. Like I love education, but I freaking love business. I love helping women and moms, you know.

run their own race and like do whatever they want to do because I feel like we've been conditioned to think that we have to do things a certain way. So yeah, I'm looking forward to broadening my horizons in those areas.

Amie Fabry (41:30)

That's amazing. What an incredible service you are providing and for different people. I love that you include EAs. Like I really, really love that because they sadly do get left out of the conversation way too often. I love that you're actually working with families and mums in particular. You know, I know that whole mum guilt comes with working and you know, how do I split my time and energy and

between being a good mom and also doing what I love outside of being a mom really challenging. And I think we do still again have some hangovers and like you said, the precondition that you kind of pick one. most people I know are actually working and they're moms and how do we still navigate some of the shame and guilt that comes around either one of those roles and that energy and emotional intelligence to be that kind.

Em (42:23)

Yes!

Yes! I'm so passionate about that!

Amie Fabry (42:26)

regulated leader in your home,

but it's so amazing. my gosh, we might have to have another whole conversation about that. Where can we reach you, with you and find out more?

Em (42:32)

Yeah.

So pretty much across all the platforms, I'm just EmGentle. So you can find me on Instagram, EmGentle coaching on Facebook and LinkedIn is just EmGentle. My website is very easy to, it's just emmagentle.com.au And I also have my own podcast called the Empowered Podcast. And that has been up and running for a couple of years too. So there's some really wonderful guest speakers on there and solo episodes. So yeah, check it out and you'll be on there soon, Ames.

Amie Fabry (43:09)

How magazine.

Em (43:11)

It'll be a lovely podcast there

listen to.

Amie Fabry (43:13)

Amazing and I have to say as someone who works in emotional intelligence I think you have the best surname, gentle. It's just so beautiful.

Em (43:21)

Everyone tells me that. But you know what the funny thing is, when I started teaching, my students would say, Miss Gentle, yeah, not so gentle because I was so punitive in the beginning. As in I was like, I was like an army sergeant. So it was sort of like a contradiction. Whereas now people are like, that so suits you. I'm like, well, it wasn't always that way.

Amie Fabry (43:25)

That's it.

So gentle. Wow, what a phenomenal

journey. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful wisdom today. I got a lot out of our conversation. know listeners will too. It's been such a joy and all the best with baby number two. Very excited for you.

Em (44:02)

so much, Ames. Thanks for having me on.