S1E8 - Emma Rattenbury: Unconditional Positive Regard
What if we prioritized educator well-being as much as we do children’s development?
How do our own personal experiences shape the way we lead and support others?
In this insightful episode, Dr Amie Fabry welcomes the inspiring Emma Rattenbury, a dedicated early childhood educator, play therapist in training, and an advocate for neurodiverse-affirming learning environments. Emma shares her journey in early childhood education, her leadership philosophy, and the importance of fostering confidence and autonomy in educators. She also discusses the critical role of relationships, self-awareness, and creating a supportive culture for both children and teachers.
Emma Rattenbury is an experienced early childhood educator, play therapist in training, and advocate for neurodiversity-affirming education. With 20 years in the sector, she has worked across teaching, curriculum leadership, and educator mentorship, focusing on inclusion, play-based learning, and professional confidence. Passionate about supporting educators, Emma emphasizes critical reflection, risk-taking, and relationship-based leadership to create thriving learning environments. As an AuDHD mum, she champions neurodiverse-affirming practices and is currently completing a Master’s in Play Therapy. A social media educator influencer with over 35,000 followers, Emma uses her platform to advocate for educator well-being, inclusion, and sector-wide change.
Connect with Emma Rattenbury
Instagram: emma_in_earlychildhood
LinkedIn: Emma Rattenbury
Facebook: Emma in Early Childhood
Hire this host via hello@thelearningfuture.com
Amie Fabry (00:01.282)
Hello friends and welcome back to Leading the Early Years for the Future. I'm your host, Amie Fabry, and today I am so excited to be speaking with an amazing pedagogical leader, educator. Emma Rattenbury is an early childhood teacher. She's a play therapist in training and she's also an AuDHD mum of neurodivergent household. Emma is an advocate for play and for supporting all children to grow and develop in ways that are meaningful for them as individuals.
And she strives to create inclusive and neurodiverse affirming spaces for children, families, and educators. I'm going to also just add that she's also an amazing TikTok sensation with over 35,000 followers. So I feel like I'm talking to a celebrity today. Emma, thank you so much for joining me.
Emma (00:48.083)
No worries, thank you so much for having me.
Amie Fabry (00:50.782)
Such a pleasure. We've connected on social media and it's such a great opportunity to actually have a conversation with you. I'm really excited. Besides from being really funny, and if you follow Emma on TikTok or even Instagram, you'll know what I'm talking about. You've got a wonderful sense of humor. I love your videos. Besides that sense of humor, do you have any hidden talents or even something that perhaps brings you joy or lights you up outside of the professional work that you do?
Emma (01:18.812)
So I love movies. I love going to the movies and things like that. part of, guess, you know, definitely my autistic brain is that I am echolalic as well. And I like, so I have a good memory for remembering lines in movies and things like that. So I will watch a movie a couple of times and pretty much know the script quite quickly. Yeah, my husband refuses to watch a movie with me.
Amie Fabry (01:34.562)
Amazing.
Amie Fabry (01:45.486)
you
Emma (01:45.614)
I also like watching the same things over and over again for familiarity. But yeah, there are some movies, know, Jim Carrey back in the day and things like that where I could just sit and go through all of the different characters. Yeah, all of the different scripts. And so that will come out in conversation. Someone will say in a normal conversation, a line and a movie will come straight through and I'll just go straight into the or a song, a lyric as well. love music. So that's probably one of my
Amie Fabry (02:03.982)
Thank
Amie Fabry (02:10.752)
wow.
Emma (02:12.582)
whether it's worthwhile or if it's, you know, got me anywhere, maybe not, but it's something I definitely like to do too. And it's a pattern thing. I love forming patterns and things like that. So yeah, a little bit of a hidden talent.
Amie Fabry (02:24.014)
That is an amazing talent. Oh my goodness. What a great skill. I wish I had a better memory, I have to say. I find so many people I know are really good at doing that. Maybe not the whole script, but you know, they'll throw in a line from a movie and I'm scratching my head going, I feel like I've heard this before, but I can't place it. Like I'm terrible. I'm the complete opposite. Like I'll love a movie and nothing sticks.
Emma (02:31.277)
Yeah.
Emma (02:43.579)
Yeah.
Emma (02:48.05)
Yeah, no, it's yeah, definitely sticks in there and then comes out at the most year inopportune time sometimes to
Amie Fabry (02:56.27)
that's so cool. Emma, you work in a couple of different roles, but I'd really love to dive into the work that you do now and what kind of led you to the work that you're doing.
Emma (03:09.552)
So yeah, I mean, I finally can tick over to say it's 20 years this year that I became a trainee in early childhood education. I did hotel management for a year and that was just awful for me. I did not like it whatsoever. And I actually was one of those educators who said, I like children, I'll give it a go. Sometimes we hear people say that and it's like, it can be met with a bit of negativity, but I was literally one of those people. I saw a traineeship and a service.
on Bondi Beach, actually, of all places. So I thought I'll give that a go. So did my traineeship and then stayed on and completed my diploma part time evening at Randwick TAFE and then moved down to Wollongong to complete my honours degree in early childhood education, did teaching and then went to the community services sector to support early childhood education there for a little bit. And then, now I've come back and am in a role where I'm supporting
Amie Fabry (03:41.462)
out.
Emma (04:06.098)
curriculum and documentation and inclusion practices across four services. And I think what brought me into this role was obviously my passion and love for the sector and really believing in children's rights to high quality early childhood education. But I don't think you can get that unless early childhood educators have a high quality work environment and they're not supported with.
Amie Fabry (04:28.718)
you
Emma (04:31.014)
consistent critical reflection, whatever that looks like for them. I'm a big fan of that looking quite different for individuals. offering it in lots of different ways. So yeah, that really led me into this role into supporting educators to have more faith in themselves because I think that can be a bit of an issue sometimes, particularly when it comes to documentation. A lot of that dislike of that comes from, you know, maybe a lack of confidence in themselves or not thinking that we can do it.
Amie Fabry (04:37.998)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (04:57.931)
Yeah.
Emma (04:59.762)
So yeah, guess it's those two passions have really come together in terms of loving working with children, but also supporting educators to see themselves in order to do that really, really well. And then the play therapy is coming alongside that as well with my master's, which I'll complete at the end of this year. So what that looks like in the future, I'm not too sure, but definitely learning like so many more skills on how we can support children through play.
Also how we can support educators to connect with themselves and children through play as well.
Amie Fabry (05:34.734)
Amazing. Wow, there's so much to dive into there. Lots of different kind of hats and you know, I can hear your passion and that you're, I guess I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it really comes through that you're driven by a really clear purpose to do this work. I'd love to know how did you kind of make the step from educator into the pedagogical leader role that you're in?
Emma (05:38.682)
Yeah.
Emma (06:01.252)
it happened quite organically, to be honest. I feel like in thinking about leadership and things prior to coming onto the podcast today, I actually can't see the steps, like the strategic thinking of this is where I want to go. I really feel like majority of my career up until maybe the last year or so in terms of deciding to do play therapy and then okay, thinking strategically and logically about what does this look like and what does this mean for me.
Amie Fabry (06:03.277)
Okay.
Amie Fabry (06:15.8)
Sure.
Emma (06:31.022)
I actually would have to stop and really think about the steps that led me there. Obviously, you know, there's been some amazing mentors and that throughout the way, but I have been really lucky to have made these steps along the way quite organically and it's happened quite naturally. So yeah, it's an interesting question that I probably don't have specific answers for. But.
Amie Fabry (06:53.816)
you
Emma (06:55.224)
Yeah, I think, you know, looking back, I did do my honours degree, like my thesis was on supporting pre-service teachers and what that looks like for them. And maybe some of the responses that came from that would have led to that. we really need to be supporting teachers to do their role well. So I've always loved early childhood education. I've always loved working with children. But I guess my area of real interest has always been, OK, but how do we support the people
Amie Fabry (07:05.55)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (07:12.066)
Thank you.
Emma (07:24.89)
to do that really, really well.
Amie Fabry (07:26.988)
Yeah, amazing. That resonates so strongly with me because I think that's sort of what's called me into doing the work that I do as well. If you don't mind me just diving in a little bit more, if I can tease out. You know, you've obviously seen a need and gone, actually see that there's a real purpose here to support those educators. Were there educators working alongside you in a service? that kind of where you...
started and you were supporting your colleagues, was there a role that you applied for or went, I'm going to do that because I can see the purpose? What may be some of those steps or was it something you were asked to come and do and you went, hey, I'll do it?
Emma (08:09.656)
Yeah, so I guess maybe when I finished my teaching degree and then I came into a room leading role and I was two IC, again, I probably thought that was the job that was offered. So I went into it, but I still didn't have a clear understanding in my mind of what leadership was or what the role was in some aspects. So and I think that it's one of those things that, you you're taught in university, but until you actually see it in practice and
Amie Fabry (08:22.402)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (08:29.614)
Hmm.
Emma (08:39.056)
you start to develop those relationships and you start to experience conflict and those sorts of things. You can't really understand what it is, but also what that means for you if it is actually something you really want to do. And if you feel like it's something that you feel confident at. So I remember having one particular moment in a pre in the preschool room. And I guess my leadership style grew into I've always felt really strongly about supporting educators to have a passion.
and run with it and just give it a crack. I'm a big fan of just giving it a crack. you know, unless someone's going to really hurt themselves, what's the worst that can happen? And I think sometimes if people feel so stressed out by regulations and ticking boxes, having a crack and having a go can feel really overwhelming because it's like, what if someone comes right in there at that moment and it's not fulfilling that box or something like that and we get in trouble or something. Whereas, you know, the chances of that happening.
Amie Fabry (09:10.734)
and
Amie Fabry (09:30.622)
Mm.
Emma (09:35.858)
If there's critical reflection, can, you know, at the end of the day, it's not that big a deal. If you're not, you know, got a flying fox going through a room or something like that without a risk assessment, then I don't think we really need to worry about that. So there was one particular educator who had come from a service and she was like, I really want to give this a go. I'm like, sure. What do need from me? Like, do you need anything? She's like, Oh, no, no, I've got it. I said, okay, cool. Give it a go. And she just kind of looked at me and I was like, what's wrong? And she's like, I've just never had anyone say.
Amie Fabry (09:47.918)
Thank
Amie Fabry (09:56.238)
Hmm.
Emma (10:06.086)
that I could just give it a go before like, or, and I went, that's really, I'm sorry. Like that's actually really sad that you haven't, you know, she was, it's just, it's just really odd. And I just, and I remember thinking about that moment really clearly, obviously I can still remember it quite vividly. So it's obviously meant something to me, but I felt like it was good. like, maybe that's something I am good at, which is like really when you've got, when, if anyone, and I think there's a lot of people in early learning have massive imposter syndrome. It was kind of like,
Amie Fabry (10:11.182)
and
Amie Fabry (10:31.854)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (10:35.758)
and
Emma (10:36.068)
no, I'm good at something. Yuck. but also it was kind of like, it sent a message to say, wow, like that's important. That's an important thing in leadership to actually have faith in people to do it themselves, like absolutely support them with time and resources and things like that. But, so I think it was that moment where I was like, and then I, because I saw the benefit for that educator. was like, I really want to keep doing this more because it's like,
Amie Fabry (10:39.854)
Thanks
Emma (11:03.154)
look how happy they are and look at the outcomes. They were amazing outcomes for the children as well. With the one, you know, the area that she was setting up, they loved it and it had so many amazing outcomes for children. um, and there's been moments where we've said, yep, give it a go. And it just didn't work. And I was like, well, didn't work like that's okay. No one got hurt. We've learned something, but let's keep going on, you know? so really supporting, yeah, educators to feel
Amie Fabry (11:25.902)
and
Emma (11:30.406)
confident in having a go, but also not being fearful of failure, which I know I need to take a leaf out of my own book when I say something like that. I think we all do sometimes. It's easy to say, yeah, if you fail, don't worry about it. But if you fail, like if I fail, like I'm not gonna sleep for a week. But yeah, yeah, I know. It's just like, yeah, do it, sure. Yeah, so I think it was those kind of moments that...
Amie Fabry (11:34.158)
and
Amie Fabry (11:45.582)
It's so true.
Emma (11:56.068)
Yeah, I built like increase that motivation in me to really want to support people and I guess probably because I see myself in them. I see like, you know, I definitely have grown and since my diagnosis and I've learned more about myself and unpacked all of that joyful childhood things. I don't like seeing people not have faith in themselves because it's like you know, instill that a little bit, but I was that a lot more than what I am now. And it's not a nice place to be. And it just doesn't help them or anyone else. So yeah, it's, yeah, it's also balancing up between going in and fixing everyone's problems. That's something I need to get better at doing as well. But yeah, I think those moments have really like, I am truly passionate about being a helper. Like I've never wanted to go be at the top of an organization or anything like that. I've always wanted to stay.
Amie Fabry (12:28.91)
you
Amie Fabry (12:36.098)
Yes.
Emma (12:49.614)
and support and to make people feel better about themselves and see them for who their skills set for what they can really do.
Amie Fabry (12:54.624)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (13:01.166)
That's so beautiful, Emma. So beautiful. There's so much to unpack in what you've talked about. It's so powerful. What have you noticed, like taking on this role in particular, like as a leader, and actually choosing to see the educators and choosing to say, well, actually, in my capacity as a leader, I want to empower people to believe in themselves. What have you noticed? And you did touch on this, but...
You say you notice a difference in the educators. Can you talk us through what that is? Like what does it look like from your perspective when you're working with an educator who doesn't believe in themselves, for example, to one that then has that support from someone like you who's actually championing them and giving them that autonomy and space to make decisions? What do you see as the impact on those educators?
Emma (13:50.386)
I it looks different individually, but it probably does follow a similar theme in that, you know, some of those first conversations, you know, it can range from like shaking sometimes like some are just so fearful, particularly if they've come from services where they just weren't supported or, or, you know, maybe even not, you know, how learning has been presented to them. That's just not how they work or, you know, they might have something like ADHD or something like that. So
Amie Fabry (14:04.334)
Yeah, wow.
Amie Fabry (14:17.1)
and
Emma (14:18.426)
how information is presented to them and how they can share their information. They haven't been given an opportunity to do it in a way that actually works with them. So they take that on themselves and they think, well, I'm the person who can't do it. Actually, I was the system that was failing you the whole time. But it can look from fearful, like just completely fearful shaking, like shaking and just really anxious.
Amie Fabry (14:25.646)
or
Emma (14:43.408)
you know, not feeling sick in the tummy. Like I'm so nervous. I just didn't, you know, I don't want people looking at my work, particularly someone, you know, who's experienced that kind of fear. Sometimes it can be just, yeah, like, you know, complete like helplessness sometimes in terms of like, I'm not, I'm never going to get this. Like it's like, I'm a lost cause. Like don't waste your time.
You know, so some of those emotions are probably what, you know, in some of those educators who've really struggled to have systems around them, support them, because I don't majority of the time it's not them. It's the system that's failed them that has caused that disconnect or for them to feel like they've failed. you know, so having that conversation at the start and you know what, a bit of humility never goes a long way. it's like, yeah.
Amie Fabry (15:10.955)
Very nice.
Amie Fabry (15:20.813)
Absolutely.
Hmm.
Emma (15:29.936)
And it's not hard for me to think of an embarrassing thing that I did that day. So I'll start with, look, I couldn't work the microwave. All right. Like I tripped and fell and dropped my lunch. Like we're all human here. And so, you know, you can start to even just that, connecting and saying, no one's perfect. You know, don't it's all good. Like there's no shame here. Like literally how many embarrassing stories do you need to make you feel better about yourself? Cause I got plenty.
Amie Fabry (15:33.198)
Thank
Amie Fabry (15:38.047)
Thank
Amie Fabry (15:44.334)
you
Amie Fabry (15:49.525)
Yes, yes.
Emma (15:55.974)
So, you know, you'll go through that and then, you know, you might have that conversation majority of the time, particularly when it's around programming documentation, they'll be like, I just don't know what to do. I'm not good at it. I don't know what to do. So I'm like, okay, tell me about one of the children that you work with and they will talk about them in depth for ever and ever. And I'm like, okay. So you say you can't document a program, but you know that child inside and out. And they're like, okay. And like, so that's what it is. So.
Amie Fabry (16:05.646)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (16:24.196)
from this conversation, I know you can do it. We just haven't given you the tools on how to share that information in a way that will suit you. And so they're like, and then you can see like the penny drop and it's just kind of like, and sometimes you can see like these really big realizations and you know, can see, I don't know, maybe five or 10 years of messages they've received, maybe all throughout their lifetime about themselves. You can just see it rolling around in their heads like,
Amie Fabry (16:34.19)
you
Emma (16:52.73)
Okay. And then sometimes I might just leave the room really quietly. Like, okay, if you need me, like I'm here, you know, it's all good. And they're like, okay. And then slowly, you know, some of like, okay, someone take that information and go, my gosh, that's great. Amazing. And then they can go on and, but some will still need a little bit of support. Like, is this okay? Like, is this okay? It's like, it's amazing. And now I hardly hear from them, which is a good thing. Like in a way, like we connect in a space about lots of different other things, but that initial concern or.
Amie Fabry (17:06.158)
you
Amie Fabry (17:16.514)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emma (17:21.67)
worry they had about themselves, we don't talk about it anymore. Unless I come and say, look how far you've come or something like that. Like, I remember when you walked in and, you know, and they were just like, I forgot. Like, you know, it's not, it's like, yeah, they, they can't even relate to that version of themselves anymore because they've been able to see themselves for who they are, for who they are because, and I think that's an important part in being in a leadership role or a support role like that is that.
Amie Fabry (17:25.134)
Hmm.
Emma (17:49.388)
know, this is something, you know, the language from play therapy comes in here that having that unconditional positive regard for each other and knowing that actually you are a good person with skills, we just haven't found the right system for you yet. And so when you look at someone with that faith of like, you've got this, they start to, they can start to see the better side of themselves through looking at how you're looking at them. It's just, yeah, a really interesting
Amie Fabry (18:02.286)
you
Emma (18:16.988)
thing to watch and obviously, really amazing and just so just like that's amazing because you don't want people coming in and like we don't cry about programming here. Like no, we're not doing like, absolutely not. Of all the things that are going on in the world, we are not doing it. Like it's not happening. So yeah, but it's just, yeah, I guess it's that that's you can see that and then so at the end of it, you get an educator who
Amie Fabry (18:30.22)
Yeah
Emma (18:41.042)
is just so much more at ease with their role. it doesn't, you know, there's still challenges and things and they still come up with rules and have questions. We were never fully going to get rid of that, but even having the confidence to ask for help because they've asked for help and it ended well. So it's like, okay, I can actually, I've got people I can trust and rely on that aren't going to judge me for asking a question. Because still so many people, I know this is a silly question and it's just like, okay. And like, I know you don't like me saying that. I'm like, no, I don't.
Amie Fabry (18:43.256)
and
Yeah, of course.
Amie Fabry (18:53.774)
Yeah, amazing.
Emma (19:10.862)
same thing. So they already preempt me. You know what I'm going to say. yeah, it is and I just think it is so powerful and it's such an amazing investment. And I really wish sector wide that would be if people could see just how positive the outcomes are for the educators and then positive outcomes for the educators means positive outcomes for children and families. So
Amie Fabry (19:24.814)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (19:34.574)
Absolutely. What a beautiful story. Emma, it's not lost on me listening to you speak just how you're so authentic and warm, you know, and like I am literally just meeting you like on the screen having a conversation for the first time, but you are, you just sort of ooze this warmth, this friendliness, this care.
through the screen, the way you're talking about the educators that you work for. And you know, what's standing out for me as you talk about this, know, absolutely you are creating this space where educators can just be themselves. I love that you talked about this unconditional positive regard. Like I think that's just so powerful, right? When you actually believe in other people's capabilities, then they can believe in their own capabilities.
And you know, you're spending time building connection with these educators, but you're also creating a culture where, you know, as you say, because you're modeling it, it's okay to make a mistake. I can't work the microwave. You know, have a laugh at yourself. Don't take yourself too seriously. That's so powerful. I'd love to know, how did you start this? Like you mentioned when you went into your role as a 2IC and you weren't really sure what that role involved and you didn't know much about leadership, which
Emma (20:41.574)
Stuff like, yeah, yeah.
Amie Fabry (20:58.818)
You know, it's often what we hear from educators who step into leadership roles. What does being a leader even mean? What does it look like? How did you kind of figure it out, I suppose, if you didn't go in knowing this is what I was going to do as a leader?
Emma (21:13.404)
Yeah, I think the biggest learning I've made is learning about myself. 100%. And I think the two I see I was is extremely different to who I am now in my role both personally and professionally. And even though like absolutely I tried really hard as a two I see, there were things that like I had to learn about myself, things that I had to like uncomfortable conversations, learning to have those two
Amie Fabry (21:40.12)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (21:43.12)
you know, be brave and talk to someone face to face instead of going and talking about it to someone else. That's something that I needed to learn and to, because I found uncomfortable conversations, I found conflict really tricky because how we manage conflict can also be heavily linked to how it was managed when we were children. It wasn't, I have, yeah, I have had a tricky childhood. So those moments, yeah, didn't really,
Amie Fabry (21:58.318)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (22:03.853)
Yeah.
Emma (22:10.886)
give me the skills on how to be brave and say, actually, I'm really uncomfortable with this. So instead, I just go and rant about it to someone else. And I will, I will clearly, I will absolutely put my hand up and say that in the start of my career, I was definitely taking part in those conversations that weren't helpful. That didn't help myself. That didn't help my colleagues and those sorts of things. So I really feel like the unpacking that I've done of myself and how I handle conflict and how I see others and how others communicate and
how we have those brave conversations has made 100 % the biggest difference for me. And that's how I think I've come to be a bit more comfortable at accepting my own faults too, because the funny thing is I would, because that's easy, right? It's easy to laugh at yourself. Well, maybe I've just had to be covered because I fall over all the time. But to have a conversation.
Amie Fabry (22:47.822)
you
Amie Fabry (22:59.169)
Yeah.
Emma (23:05.83)
with, you know, say someone now like, you know, who's maybe starting into a room leader or something like that, who may, you know, say, look, I'm finding it really hard to navigate this relationship with my friendship with an educator, but also being their room leader and supporting them to say, Hey, mate, I don't think that was a good decision. Or, Hey, can we talk about what happened with that child? Can you unpack that for me? Like, I don't know how to do that. And it's like, I know that's really uncomfortable and awkward. And yeah, look, it might blow up.
Amie Fabry (23:06.561)
you
Emma (23:35.738)
Like it might not end well, might, you know, if the other person isn't ready to hear that information, or maybe sometimes we deliver it not well, but I can tell you that that pathway is always going to lead to much more positive, open relationships than going down the other way and just either internalizing it or going to another room leader and saying that person, my God, like, because I get it. And sometimes we're human, it slips out totally, but I think
Amie Fabry (23:38.232)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (23:55.47)
you
Emma (24:03.63)
looking at yourself, say, well, why do I do that? Why do I go to another person instead of going to the person who I have the, who I am, you know, have an issue with, or we have a disagreement or, know, it's my job to say, Hey, actually, we don't talk to children like that, or whatever it might be. Why can't I go and talk to that person? And sometimes I'm like, because they're, don't like taking on feedback. A lot of people don't, you know, and I would say that, but they're not going to listen to me. So I'll just go and talk about it to someone else.
Amie Fabry (24:06.514)
and
Emma (24:32.294)
That was the excuse I had all the time. And actually that wasn't the real reason. The real reason was because I was really uncomfortable with it and I didn't know how to do it. And I was worried that if I did that, people wouldn't like me and things like that. And so I think coming to that realization as well throughout my life to know that even though it's, yeah, it's hard sometimes to think that someone doesn't like you, that's just life. It's going to happen. People aren't going to see the world the way you see it. And that's okay. So I think
Amie Fabry (24:38.958)
Mm.
Amie Fabry (24:44.11)
Hmm.
Emma (25:00.978)
Yeah, coming from that too, I see to where I am now and I guess where some of my strengths might be. I do that because obviously I don't like talking about myself in a positive way. Sometimes it has been that work. And I know sometimes people think, oh, you know, therapy, it's blah, blah, blah. But I'm just saying, I'm being honest. Like I am authentic. You know, as I get older, I have less time for being anything but authentic. It's just what's helped for me. And I think regardless of your childhood, sometimes, you know,
Amie Fabry (25:10.67)
you
Amie Fabry (25:20.078)
Amen.
Amie Fabry (25:24.738)
Yep. Yep.
Emma (25:30.99)
generational, I don't think conflict was handled very well. I still don't think it's handled very well, but it's not to say that had a disaster childhood of conflict wasn't handled well or anything like that. we get messages a lot, living in Australia, which is a very punitive country, we get a lot of messages about consequences and blah, blah, blah. So having difficult conversations can be difficult for a lot of people because of
Amie Fabry (25:43.832)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (25:57.496)
So that's
Emma (26:00.1)
actually sitting in that discomfort of going, this is going to upset someone potentially, but we're not going to get to the other side. And I think one of the, the benefits of that is when you do it a few times and you can see relationships endure and go beyond those moments, you like, look how much stronger we are for it. I don't know if I answered that question at the end, I like it the tension, but yeah.
Amie Fabry (26:01.848)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (26:14.03)
you
Amie Fabry (26:18.007)
Okay.
Amie Fabry (26:21.362)
you did. No, no, you did. It's amazing. And I'm really quite in awe of you, I think, because you are just being so honest about this. It's something we don't talk about enough, I don't think, is the fact that being a leader is hard. But a big part of being a leader is being able to have those difficult conversations, because you are there to lead and to guide the educators. And they will do things that perhaps
don't align with your philosophy or values. And so we have to be able to have those conversations. And because they are often about what we know, our skills or our values, people get defensive and feel like they're under attack. And we've just been talking about building their capabilities. it's really clear why we avoid those difficult conversations, right? We just want to focus on the positive and be everyone's friend and our egos are at play.
Emma (27:16.23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (27:20.64)
I love and I'm so grateful to you for just talking through your experience in that space and actually recognizing that you needed to actually lean into the uncomfortable and learn from those uncomfortable conversations. And I'm sure some of them went well and some of them didn't. I know I have the same experience myself. It's tricky, but we do want to shy away from the hard stuff. We want to sit where we're comfortable.
Emma (27:46.694)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (27:47.83)
We want to just either bury our head in the sand, say nothing and hope it goes away. Or we want to go and tell someone else because, you know, did you say that? You know, you want to feel...
Emma (27:54.834)
Yeah. Or, or for some people it's safe as well. Like for some people it's the safe option. So that's what they're even the nervous system might be telling them because, know, maybe as a child they, and this was my experience, my child was, well, you can't go and tell someone something like that because that's not what children do. Like, like my, my child, I was still getting the messages as a child. So I hadn't unpacked all the, you know, the childhood stuff. So sometimes how we see conflict, still see it through a child's like, well, I still saw it through a child's eyes.
Amie Fabry (28:03.118)
10.
Amie Fabry (28:22.761)
Yeah.
Emma (28:24.292)
in terms of like, you can't talk to someone about that because that's not your job even. It's just like, no, no, that's, you know, that's dangerous. You know, when you bring up something like conflict or something like a disagreement that can, that may have had really bad consequences for people too. So it can be a really complex thing to unpack with the team in terms of why we don't like conflict and why we shy away from it. Because, you know, why the reason why can be really, really different for
Amie Fabry (28:28.52)
and
Amie Fabry (28:38.286)
you
Amie Fabry (28:49.846)
more
Emma (28:53.746)
And layered, multi-layered in terms of why it's difficult for everyone in the space.
Amie Fabry (28:57.966)
Is that something you talk about with your team then having difficult conversations?
Emma (29:06.468)
No, like that's probably, I do talk about like on my social media a little bit, particularly around maybe with families, having conversations with families. I do talk about that a lot in terms of how we can support them to maybe seek further assessment or referral for their, for children and things like that. And so maybe some of that discomfort is, it comes off on that in some of those conversations as well.
Amie Fabry (29:15.052)
Yep. Yep.
Amie Fabry (29:33.698)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma (29:35.146)
but yeah, like I think a lot of the time, yeah, it's particular. My inbox is full on most of my social media from the educator saying this is happening. I don't know what to do. and so I will have conversations to say, you know, can you have a conversation about it? Unfortunately, without knowing the, how that particular organization runs sometimes, you know, it might not go well as well. So, you know, sometimes, unfortunately, not for all organizations by far, but sometimes it might be saying.
Amie Fabry (29:45.87)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (29:59.566)
and
Emma (30:04.754)
it might be best to look for somewhere else, you know, having said that, but here are some ways that you might want to mention it. So in giving them strategies in terms of how we can approach, maybe use like declarative language or wonderings instead of, you know, so language that might be less threatening for people as well. I think that's always really good because a lot of the time we have this resistance to change, or if there's something that you want to talk about, you know, it's
Amie Fabry (30:06.924)
Yeah. Yep.
Amie Fabry (30:11.406)
you
Amie Fabry (30:18.062)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emma (30:30.002)
you look take it personally. It's like, I'm a bad person. Then like a lot of people just go, I'm a bad person. I'm bad at my job. Some people take that, you know, particularly again, if they're not happy, if they don't have a high self-esteem of themselves, any kind of fate feedback can be taken quite personally. You know, they hear, oh, I'm just interested in how you spoke to the child like that. Like, oh, so you say I'm a bad teacher. Like, you know, that some people can have that reaction because that's where
Amie Fabry (30:35.736)
Bye.
Emma (30:56.55)
their brain has gone. so, know, for the other person on the other side of that conversation, that can be really like, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. Never mind. I just kind of like leave it that. Yeah, I think, you know, having those conversations like, and I think coming back to that unconditional positive regard, if we always have that for someone, and if we always communicate that, and we have a conversation to say, I, if you go into those conversations saying, I know this is a good person.
Amie Fabry (30:57.998)
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (31:06.04)
Totally. Yeah.
Emma (31:24.05)
I know they don't want to harm children. I know they want the best like I do. So something's not working. It's not a personal because, you know, so when we're having, always recommend this when you're having staff meetings and things about some things, if there's a, you know, big divide amongst the team about, I don't know, the sheets or whatever, like, you know, you know, it's going to be on, you can, you can just start that conversation saying, guys, you know what?
Amie Fabry (31:43.266)
Yep. Yep.
Emma (31:49.478)
we're all good people. Does anyone think there's a jerk in the room or like that person wants to harm children or wants to harm each other? You know, and if there is, well, maybe they shouldn't be there, but likely there isn't. And then everyone goes, no. Right, okay, so can we please just keep that as the baseline that we, so if something's going wrong, it's not because we're not bad people.
Amie Fabry (31:53.198)
and
Amie Fabry (32:01.262)
you
Amie Fabry (32:12.046)
and
Emma (32:13.34)
There's just maybe we're just seeing things through a different lens that we just need to stop and understand people's perspectives without, you know, I'm going to say this, but that doesn't, I'm not saying you're a bad person or that you want bad things. I'm just, you know, and really fostering that whole idea of we only know what we know too. You know, I say that a lot, like sometimes with whatever content I put out, some people, you know, have a big reaction to it in terms of like, I've always done that.
Amie Fabry (32:16.622)
and
Amie Fabry (32:20.514)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (32:25.806)
enough.
Amie Fabry (32:32.206)
Good.
Emma (32:42.372)
Totally. Like I did it too, because until when I read this research or when I saw this in practice, there was a different way of doing it. It was actually kind of better. you're not a bad person for doing these things. Sometimes it's just, yeah, it's seeing the human in each other, I think can be a really good foundation to work on in developing some of those professional relationships and having some of those complex conversations.
Amie Fabry (32:52.493)
you
Amie Fabry (32:58.348)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (33:06.446)
Absolutely. I love that you obviously apply that kind of mantra of that unconditional positive regard in your own relationships with educators, but then you're also bringing that to your team so that they can hopefully then see each other through the same lens. And I think at the end of the day, we're all human. We all want to feel valued. We all want to feel capable. And I don't think you do work in early childhood education unless you actually care about children and want to do a good job.
You know, I think that is just such a beautiful way to frame conversations. And again, to not just think it, but say it explicitly because it changes the tone, right? When you can acknowledge that. Yeah.
Emma (33:44.274)
Absolutely, totally, that's right. Yeah, yeah, and so I know, and particularly, you know, if someone's having a bit of an off week or something like that, and so they might be taking it out on their educators, you go, I know you, I know you're a good person and you do so many amazing things. So what I'm seeing now, I feel like this isn't you, like, how can I help, you know? I think that's...
Amie Fabry (33:53.41)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (33:58.424)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (34:04.394)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emma (34:08.722)
You know, and sometimes, you know, it might be bit of a closed up and they know I'm fine, but sometimes it can open the floodgates. It's like, actually, you like this is the first time someone's asked me if I'm okay, you know. And I think with how busy the world has become and how detached, you know, we can be from each other. I don't think people are asked how they are. And have someone just say, how are you? I'm here to listen. I'm not here to fix your problems as well. Sometimes too. And I think we can see that.
Amie Fabry (34:17.1)
Yeah, yeah.
Amie Fabry (34:30.53)
move
Amie Fabry (34:36.216)
Yep. Yep.
Emma (34:38.8)
you know, in educators that, you know, that increased stress that educators are experiencing is not just the change in children's behavior and or family dynamic changes or the stress. It's also the stress that they could be potentially bringing in from the shift in their own personal lives because everyone's life just feels like it's, you know, hit accelerate with, you know, without any with very little warning. So, yeah, I think that's really important to just
Amie Fabry (34:55.438)
Mmm.
Amie Fabry (35:00.578)
Yep. Yep.
Emma (35:08.356)
acknowledge it and say, that's awful. No, there's no silver lining. That's really awful. You know? Yeah.
Amie Fabry (35:12.27)
Absolutely. Absolutely. think I totally agree. I think we need to have more empathy for each other. you know, whether that is actually just listening and caring about someone, you don't have to fix the problems and often you can't fix the problems. You know, and if we actually think about empowering educators, we don't want to fix their problems because that doesn't actually empower them, right? But making space for people to show up as they are, to genuinely ask how they are going, I think is
Emma (35:20.38)
Yeah.
Emma (35:32.59)
No, that's right. That's exactly right. Yep. Yep.
Amie Fabry (35:41.866)
is just so important to acknowledge that we are all human beings and we all have a personal life. We all have things going on inside us that often nobody knows, you know, and it could be around your own confidence or sense of identity. It could be something that's happening at home. It could be that you're just really struggling with something at work, but you know, you need a safe space to actually just be able to say it, to ask for help, like you said before, or, you know, and not have to pretend that you're fine because I don't think any of us cope very well, you know, having to pretend we're fine.
Emma (36:08.464)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (36:11.628)
And I think what I love about what you're saying too is, you know, it comes back to that unconditional positive regard. We know that people are good people and want to do well. So not judging, you know, the behaviors that we see through a lens of there's something wrong with them or why did they do that and being critical, but through a lens, I guess, of more curiosity, what's going on for them.
Emma (36:25.244)
Yep.
Emma (36:33.402)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's right. Like curiosity is one of my favorite strategies, really. Like, and you know, if you're familiar with any Stuart Schenker's work, like he's a big advocate for when we're in states of stress or dysregulation, asking a question and being curious can support you to get out of that red brain and, you know, being in that stress response back and getting some of that logical thinking back online, because it just shifts the brain's focus, but also you can actually start to, well, what is
Amie Fabry (36:39.029)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (36:49.23)
you
Emma (37:02.886)
going on here and I'm like, I'm a natural problem solver. So that maybe led to, you know, part of where I am now professionally, but I like thinking, but why, why, why, why, why they doing that? Like, but it is a really useful strategy. And that's not to say we, we don't uphold our standards or our boundaries or let poor behaviors sink in or anything like that. But if you don't know the root or the cause of the issue, how are you ever going to solve it? And sometimes we can't, sometimes we can't, sometimes there are
Amie Fabry (37:21.613)
and
Amie Fabry (37:30.892)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (37:32.664)
situations where, you know, that particular person will need to seek additional support because as much as we can be supportive and offer really safe environments, this, you know, we aren't trained psychologists or, know, definitely don't get paid for it all the time for it to do that. So, you know, individuals still need to take responsibility for that working and finding out what might be, you know, going on for them. Absolutely. But, just being there to say, but I understand why this is happening.
Amie Fabry (37:38.574)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (37:45.24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (37:52.887)
Yeah.
Emma (38:01.586)
And it's not an excuse, it's just an explanation. And maybe, you know, yet we can't, you know, go through counseling and things like that for you, but maybe, you know, there's some adjustments we can make here. And maybe when people hear other people's stories and what they're struggling with, they will start to make adjustments too and know that it's a 50-50 relationship. So if they go through something that that will
Amie Fabry (38:13.698)
Mm.
Emma (38:27.462)
that same respect and adjustment will be made for them as well.
Amie Fabry (38:29.486)
Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think as leaders, you know, and whether you're an educator and you're just leading your colleagues or whether you are, you know, a 2IC, but I think we, we can all show up for each other, you know, having that empathy and that safe space, not having to rescue people, but even just to listen might be that you help someone else to realize that actually going to talk to a psychologist or something might actually help them, you know, or just reminding them of, you know, what our values are and, and
how we wanna show up for children and families and for each other. That's still gotta be important even when people are going through a hard time. We don't wanna let go of all of our values, but we wanna hold onto them, but we wanna support people to be able to uphold those. And I think creating those conversations, opening with curiosity, it's such a great way to do that. And it also doesn't put the onus on the leader, right? You don't have to come in with the answers and the solutions, you're just listening.
Emma (39:13.712)
No, that's right.
Emma (39:30.77)
That's right, I know, which is such, again, a big stressor. so I'm a new way leader, what do I do? Like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, that's fine. Like, you know, it's always straight on to what's the program going to look like? And you know, what regulations do I need to follow? My one piece of advice, which I always share across my socials as well as if you're coming into a new role, relationships. Relationships first is like what the program looks like up on the wall, whether it's a box or a
Amie Fabry (39:41.313)
Yeah
Emma (39:57.874)
mind map or anything that can all wait, can get might, might be doing something just to keep it going and things like that. But until you have those relationships established until you know your team and how you can truly support them and create a system that's going to work for everyone, then that stuff, you know, really needs to
just wait. I think, you you go to that soft because obviously you have regulations and that, you know, pressing down on you and you know, management might be saying you need 10 OBS a week or whatever it might be. But, you know, it's those relationships that you have to, to, understand and explore first because whatever you create is never going to be as good unless you know actually how the team.
Amie Fabry (40:27.79)
and
Emma (40:43.878)
work. And yeah, I always feel like that's the best, like the most important thing. you know, if we're looking at the quality areas as well, it's like, you know, seven is like that management and leadership and things like that. If that doesn't work, then the rest, the other, you know, six standards are really going to struggle as well. Those quality areas, you know, it's really about understanding each other and then going, okay, we, you know, we know where we're at. We know what we might like.
Amie Fabry (40:55.544)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (41:13.746)
things to look like or how we might process things and how can we do that together? And I think, yeah, sometimes, yeah, we go towards the boxes, because again, it's easy, it's tangible. It's like, this is actually encouraging someone to get to know each other and to start developing that unconditional positive regard. that's a little bit of hard work, actually. And again, if you don't know yourself, you're going to find it really hard to understand and know other people. So I think, again, that's where you know, that's
Amie Fabry (41:16.91)
and
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (41:23.886)
Yep.
Amie Fabry (41:33.07)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (41:38.51)
and
Emma (41:43.056)
definitely one of my strategies as well for everyone, I think, but particularly those leadership positions whose role it is to mentor and support people. You'll do that so much better if you understand yourself and some of those areas that you might struggle with or that you're really good at.
Amie Fabry (41:48.674)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (41:52.888)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (42:04.854)
Yeah, it's so true. I think, you know, I think across the board, and I think this happens in schools too, in education, you know, relationships, we talk about them, and I think we know they're important, but we don't have anything to show for them. Do you know what I mean? So we jump into the things where we can tick the boxes. But whether it's relationships with children or families or educators and colleagues, when we spend the time, you know, as you said, the other things become much richer because people are connected to the work.
Emma (42:18.994)
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (42:34.464)
more deeply when they feel cared for and they feel that they can show up and contribute. And it goes right back to what we were talking about at the beginning, but having those conversations that are really open and being authentic, saying it's okay to try something new or it's okay to make a mistake. What do you need help with means that people can lean into all of the other quality areas if you're in a service or
Emma (42:47.858)
Absolutely. Yep.
Amie Fabry (42:55.05)
even aspects of pedagogical practice or documentation, you know, and ask some of the harder questions and actually be more open and honest about where they're at in their own pedagogical journey because we've created this safe space and you've got that culture and that trust. So those relationships, think, I think sometimes we still take them for granted, right? And we really need to invest, invest that time.
Emma (42:59.228)
Thank you.
Emma (43:07.205)
Absolutely.
for watching.
absolutely. Yeah. And I guess maybe you don't see it as much unless you've put the effort in and you can see the fruits of it coming through being more connected with the team or being able to have those really difficult conversations and think, I couldn't have conversations like this at my other service or at my other school or, five or 10 years ago. But now I can and actually look at now like, you know, the first question about like, what was the difference in between the edge, like the educator from the start to the end so much?
Amie Fabry (43:23.212)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (43:28.163)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (43:40.685)
Yeah.
Emma (43:43.63)
so different because now their relationships and they've had more confident in the experiences in the environments that they're creating for children. So before those might not have occurred because that relationship wasn't fostered to support them to get there. And I think, yeah, it is one of those things that sometimes, you know, in leadership and that relationships or knowing yourself, sometimes it's like, you know, seen as kind of like, like Fufu or
Amie Fabry (44:07.628)
Yeah.
Emma (44:10.828)
or something like that, or, you know, it's not important. But I beg, I just completely disagree. Like I just think that, you know, and some of the best leaders that not only that I've worked with, but my husband's worked with, that my friends have worked with, just, yes, they have their strategic and they've really, they've got all these amazing skills. But at the end of the day, they've all been really decent people.
Amie Fabry (44:10.904)
Yep.
Amie Fabry (44:38.478)
and
Emma (44:39.238)
They've been really decent people, not to say that all leaders in the world are decent people, but that's another another conversation for another time. But certainly in education, certainly in education that, yes, you know, there are some that you go, that's interesting, nepotism. But like in the majority of the ones who get there and stay there and have the best impact and get the best out of their educators and they're feeling comfortable and safe in the environment.
Amie Fabry (44:44.728)
That's another conversation.
Mm.
Emma (45:08.23)
They're just really decent people who know how to treat humans as humans. And they're the ones who have the big farewell, right? Like they have the big farewell and they're like, know, people are crying when they're leaving because they've just made such an impact on them. I, you know, that might be, that's of course anecdotally, but I just, that's the similarity I've seen in some of those leaders is that they, yep. And they have boundaries. They're not soft. They,
Amie Fabry (45:14.84)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (45:18.658)
Yay.
Amie Fabry (45:23.118)
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (45:34.99)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emma (45:36.198)
They absolutely have their expectations and if they're not met, will be discussions about that. There's no softness in that respect, but they just get people and they have a sense of humility about them.
Amie Fabry (45:49.462)
Yeah, it's so true. I think, you know, when you look at sort of leadership models, they're kind of like, you can do things to people or you can do things with people, right. And I think, I think that's the difference you're talking about, you know, like, still having a vision for where you want to go, still having, you know, high standards. And we do want to have high expectations for children and for educators, but we want to do it in a way that is relational.
Emma (46:00.494)
Absolutely.
Amie Fabry (46:15.264)
responsive and has empathy and we actually care about the people we're working with and we go on a journey together. I think you know what everything you've said resonates so strongly it is what I agree as well. I think people have to come first you know in education right across the board you know particularly in those early years because we're having such an impact on those children in shaping their identities as well. I think it's so profound to focus on those relationships.
Emma (46:21.618)
Yes.
Amie Fabry (46:45.122)
first and foremost, even though they take longer. It's definitely building those really strong foundations, right? For great thriving teams, for educators who can thrive in their roles and then support our children to also thrive. Such great advice, Emma. My last question is, when you think about the future for our young people, but also for our educators and for our sector,
Emma (46:47.602)
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (47:07.306)
Is there something that you're either really excited about or something that you see is a really great opportunity where we can all play a part, no matter what our role, to really help children and our educators to thrive?
Emma (47:21.478)
think there's lots to be excited about. Like, I mean, you only have to go to a conference to see other motivated and excited educators come together and learn from each other and say, my goodness, that's such an amazing idea. was ECA last year, you know, I think they had over 2000 people there. And it was just that that was the best bit about it. it
Amie Fabry (47:39.16)
Yeah.
Emma (47:42.512)
like for lot of those conferences is people coming together and sharing as well. And you could just see people going off to all parts of the country and the world really, because there were international people there too. And just being re-inspired and those sorts of things in any conference I think can be, can really, you know, bring that enthusiasm back. So I'm always excited for people sharing ideas and things like that. And I think...
Amie Fabry (47:46.08)
Yeah.
Emma (48:10.546)
I think we are making headway in terms of public perception of early learning. You know, hopefully more particularly as parents, you know, as they leave us, that's one way I know, I tell educators that they can advocate for the sector is when children are graduating at your, you know, end of year celebration or whatever it is, beg to family say, please don't forget us. Please don't forget the moments that we have and any chance you get, we would totally appreciate advocating for a role if you ever hear someone saying about, you know, something about the early.
Amie Fabry (48:29.71)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (48:36.791)
Yeah.
Emma (48:38.834)
of importance of early learning and they're trying to be negative about the sector, please advocate for us because we would really appreciate that because I think early learning, might only be there for a few years with education, 13 years sometimes. So you've really got to try and plant those seeds with parents whilst you have them because we don't have them for as long. So I really do feel that the more we learn about the brain and things like that, that the importance for quality early learning is growing.
Amie Fabry (48:55.477)
Yeah.
Emma (49:06.61)
Obviously, you know, with the staff wages and things like that, as that starts to kick off, you know, I'm really excited that things are being hands are being forced in terms of we really work very hard and we actually deserve a whole lot more than you know, what we are paid. So yeah, and hearing anyone in that space, always say, look, the next five to 10 years is going to be really exciting in terms of how the funding works and how we could maybe
make some adjustments to make it more, you know, a better system for everyone who's involved. So that's really, really exciting. I think if there was an area for growth, I think one thing that I've really learned from, you know, the social media stuff as well is that sometimes it feels like there's a bit of a haves and haves not situation in early learning. So we have educators who work hard, absolutely, and the role will never be easy, but they do work for services that do.
value them and just invest so much in their work and do anything and everything to make them the best educator that can be, that they can be. And then unfortunately, there are a group of educators who just don't get that same support, that same investment. And so not only is that detrimental to their career and their personal lives, but also then to the quality of education that they are able to provide to children. So I think
It would be, and I don't know what that looks like exactly. And it's hard because we don't want to, you know, share that information in a way that's going to bring the entire sector down. But I think there are certain parts of the sector that we need to actually have some brave conversations ourselves and say, you know what, this exists and it's not great. And what can we do to support those educators to, and really how can we actually
do a better job at really ensuring that those who start a business or who are in the sector, how can we do a better job at making sure that they are actually here for the outcomes for children and families and their educators? Because that's just the right thing to do and that's the rights of the child for all of them to access high quality early learning. So I think if we don't do that, we definitely need to do that sensitively and in a way that's going to be meaningful and have impact.
Amie Fabry (51:16.408)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (51:26.414)
you
Emma (51:26.812)
But I think if we ignore some of these issues in the sector, because we're fearful of it having a negative impact on what it looks like from the outside, then we're actually not withholding the rights of each child to have high quality early learning. And also when we're not supporting educators to stay within the sector and to feel like they are actually, you know, succeeding in their roles. So.
Amie Fabry (51:40.014)
and
Amie Fabry (51:52.969)
and
Emma (51:53.36)
Yeah, a bit of a bit of everything there, but, definitely so much to be excited for. And I don't think there's a problem that can't be overcome with some really strong advocacy and some problem solving and things like that. But, yeah, obviously, being in the sector for 20 years don't plan on leaving any time soon. And there's so many people. not the only one. So, yeah, it's always good to see how we can kind of.
put politics aside and come together and say, actually, how can we make this a better sector for children, families and educators? So, yeah.
Amie Fabry (52:27.212)
Yeah, amazing Emma. Thank you so much. I think we all have a role to play, don't we? Like you said, advocating but seeing the best in people and supporting the people around us and you know that very much is about leadership really isn't it at all levels I think in our sector. Right from the politicians down but we won't get into politics.
Emma (52:43.364)
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's right. We all Yeah, that's right. We all have a role to play. And I think no matter where your role is that you can absolutely have an amazing impact. And yeah, it's just like the little ripple effect kind of thing you don't and that's the hardest part about early learning and being an early childhood educator as well is that so often the impact that we have, we don't actually get to see it. Because it might look like, we're just supporting them here, but actually
Amie Fabry (52:58.158)
Hmm.
Amie Fabry (53:07.69)
So true.
Emma (53:11.622)
That was the really strong foundation that they were able to build upon. So yeah, we can definitely have an impact no matter where we are within the sector.
Amie Fabry (53:20.852)
Absolutely. Well, Emma, it has been an absolute delight to finally meet you properly and have this wonderful conversation I've learnt so much from you. Thank you so much for your time.
Emma (53:31.737)
No worries, thanks for having me.
