Getting Smart: Tom Vander Ark
Is there a chance that in trying to innovate we risk inflating systems in a way that 'misses the mark'? How can we approach innovative and big ideas in a way that is mission focussed?
This conversation also features a careful speculations on the impact of OpenAI's ChatGPT and how learning innovators imagine and prepare for it's potential implications.
In this sixth episode of Education Transformed, Louka speaks with Tom Vander Ark, a strong professional advocate for innovation in education but also a deep thinker about the potential consequences or failures of new systems.
Tom Vander Ark is an advocate for innovations in learning. As CEO of Getting Smart, he advises schools, districts, networks, foundations and learning organizations on the path forward. A prolific writer and speaker, Tom is author of Getting Smart, Smart Cities That Work for Everyone, Smart Parents, Better Together, The Power of Place and Difference Making at the Heart of Learning. and has published thousands of articles and papers. He writes regularly on GettingSmart.com, Forbes, and LinkedIn.
Previously he served as the first Executive Director of Education for the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Tom served as a public school superintendent in Washington State and has extensive private sector experience. He serves on the board of Education Board Partners, 4.0 Schools, Digital Learning Institute, Latinx Education Collaborative, Mastery Transcript Consortium and eduInnovation. He is also an advisor to numerous schools and startups.
Episode links:
Thomas Homer-Dixon on Commanding Hope and the Nature of Complexity Podcast
Sam Seidel and Olatunde Sobomehin on the Creative Hustle and Blazing Your Own Path
Check out this season’s partner publication: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/issue/transformed-the-case-for-education-transformation
[transcript auto-generated]
00:00:03:20 - 00:00:07:20
Louka
Tom, it's fantastic to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining.
00:00:09:03 - 00:00:10:16
Tom
Hey, Louka it's good to be with you.
00:00:11:04 - 00:00:38:22
Louka
I really think since the last time we spoke, a few small things have happened in terms of disruptions to the global world, to, you know, certainly to the ways of being, not just the ways of learning and working. And, you know, this is a real a real moment in time for us to think about transformation as one of the kind of big themes that's emerged post maybe even during pandemic.
00:00:38:22 - 00:00:45:12
Louka
And certainly now with the other, you know, generally I chat type disruption. So I'd love you just to.
00:00:45:15 - 00:01:19:08
Tom
But look. Yeah, yeah, look, look. It's I think it is a it's such an interesting time in in human history where we've just lived through a global pandemic. It's really the first time in terms of disease and communication and culture and economy and climate that it's obvious that we shared a small planet, right. That we've we've suddenly just didn't like last 36 months.
00:01:19:08 - 00:01:53:01
Tom
Understood how connected we are. Right? We've added hyper connected to VUCA. Yes. In the last six months. And and whether it's a a disease vector or a communication vector or a an economic vector, not right now. The the infection is inflation and climate vector. We I guess it I have this overwhelming sense of mutuality that we're experiencing things as a species for the first time.
00:01:53:01 - 00:02:29:05
Tom
And it it feels and you could add DVT right in the way that exploded in in December and suddenly it's used globally by millions of people for fun and learning and and other applications. So, wow, what what an interesting time on so many different fronts that required organizations, not not just learning organizations, but I think all organizations to sort of rethink mission and and deployment.
00:02:29:06 - 00:02:33:12
Tom
Right. How you carry out the work that you've you've taken on.
00:02:34:07 - 00:02:55:10
Louka
Tom, I really like I really like the overview effect. You know, when an astronaut goes into space and then looks back at the Earth and they were caught having this acute realization that we are fully interconnected. And I think the way you've framed all that, it's kind of like we've all been having our own micro overview effects that, Oh, wait, everything is connected.
00:02:55:20 - 00:03:14:12
Louka
And the systems, the legacy systems that we've been utilizing, you know, that we've inherited, frankly, be they economic be that ecological, be they educational, I think really are at this point of needing to be repurposed and and shifted.
00:03:16:00 - 00:03:45:03
Tom
Yeah, yeah. Let me add that the only unfortunate thing is that, you know, by the Russia's invasion in Ukraine is that we're living also through a geopolitical recession. And so what Thomas Farmer Dixon, a Canadian 15 years ago predicted in the ingenuity gap, he said our collective responsibility is going down while the complexity of our shared challenges is going up.
00:03:45:21 - 00:04:27:07
Tom
Right. And so we're facing these these global crises, but with less collective responsibility. And so I guess in some respects, that is daunting for young people. Just the new existential threat that the many young people feel and feel pretty personally and tangibly. Mm hmm. Is that one of the reasons that you feel so strongly about social emotional learning about wellbeing?
00:04:27:18 - 00:04:32:20
Tom
Isn't that an important part of your practice in the way of thinking about.
00:04:34:01 - 00:04:59:22
Louka
Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, because I feel like if one of the questions is, you know, what is a school for, you know, um. Oh, you know what, what school could be is another great frame, of course, by a colleague of ours, you know, but this, this idea that, all right, if there's all this disruption happening and and as you say, kind of a decline in the the kind of globally or even the neoliberal narrative, frankly, then then what's next?
00:04:59:24 - 00:05:19:19
Louka
How how do we find meaning when we see this collapse of meaning? And clearly it needs to be a return to something? I, in my view, not an invention towards something necessarily. That return is a to, you know, towards deep, fully human ways of learning being. And that's why the elevation of social and emotional dimensions of learning is such a huge part of our practice.
00:05:19:19 - 00:05:47:05
Louka
And my my work as an educator and leader, because I really feel that now it's always been the moment, you know, it's like now is the moment. No, no, the moment was always, but certainly, you know, when we think about how do we try to bake in the right type of capabilities, even just to cope, to to self-regulate in a very complex, ambiguous and now, as you said, hyperconnected, now additive VUCA world, you know, it's overwhelming.
00:05:47:10 - 00:06:09:22
Louka
And so what's the school for? Clearly, it can't just be about academic achievement, because if we get to this point where a young person has succeeded under that traditional model, they've got great grades, they've got a high GPA, you know, that's because we're focused on, as Professor Jane Clinton, a colleague of mine would say, the tyranny of cognitive obsession.
00:06:09:22 - 00:06:30:23
Louka
It's actually what's the point of being a great thinker, Tom, if you if you aren't socially connected and you haven't, you can't manage your emotional tone and you can increase it to being physically well and even the spiritual question and to be connected to something greater than yourself, be that religious tradition for the sense of purpose. What is my life unfolding towards what might be mine to do?
00:06:30:23 - 00:06:34:02
Louka
Tom So I think that that perspective.
00:06:34:24 - 00:06:50:19
Tom
I think that's really been our our great discovery or rediscovery of the last 36 months. Our friends Klein and Liang wrote this book, a kind of navigate life where they they called it the purpose mindset.
00:06:51:02 - 00:06:51:12
Louka
Yeah.
00:06:52:22 - 00:07:28:16
Tom
But we we really believe that. I guess we've come to understand the importance of learner agency and agency come to expressed to be to be expressed as a sense of purpose and that that idea really has to be central to every institution of learning, that it has to be about helping young person discover who they are, what they're good at, what their interests are, and where and how they want to begin to make a contribution in the world.
00:07:28:21 - 00:07:59:06
Tom
We we summarized that right at the beginning of the pandemic in a book called Difference Making at the Heart of Learning and where we argue that this idea of difference making or contributing, yeah, contribute of learning, a mutual friend would call it. Yes, Really, That sense of purpose of making the world a better place is there's a new opportunity to to route those ideas at the as part of the new mission of education.
00:08:00:21 - 00:08:29:18
Louka
That's absolutely right. And even I think I think it just comes back to the whole notion that we're all connected and perhaps the journey, Tom, is, you know, you can't you can't evolve unless you're involved and don't want to, you know, cite the automatic wisdom too early in the conversation. You know nothing about us without us. This idea of agency seems to be one of the the enormous themes that is emerging from all these other disruptions, as you say.
00:08:29:18 - 00:08:52:08
Louka
What's the point of, you know, even this kind of growth orientation that we have economically of infinite growth in a finite world, which, you know, Joseph Stiglitz has a few views on, as do I. I mean, this this is a change towards this direction. It's not about growth, it's about benefit or contribution. So even Duke's work is beautiful, but it's based on the individual.
00:08:52:16 - 00:09:11:03
Louka
And so I guess what I'm reflecting on, Tom, is as we do redesign our ways of being and learning in our schools, our universities and our workforces, you know, how do we move to this idea that we individuate as much as possible for one reason only, and that is to contribute back into the collective and for what purpose?
00:09:11:11 - 00:09:31:02
Louka
Collective thriving. And that means, you know, Valerie Hannan's word, that means within ourselves, between each other at the community level and critically at the planetary level, you know. So how do we how do we start? You can't if you don't care about something, you you don't act. And so how do we begin to like how do we remember?
00:09:31:16 - 00:09:52:13
Louka
Remember to care that we're all in this together? I think it's such a I like this idea of the purpose mindset. You know, it's like it's not just self-actualization, Tom. It's not cool. You and I were actually, as you know, in our know, it's self transcendence, it's collective actualization. What are we doing this for together? And that, I think, was what Maslow was writing about before he died, you know, actually.
00:09:52:13 - 00:09:57:08
Louka
But was it didn't make it into the model, Tom But it's there really in the thinking. You know.
00:09:58:10 - 00:10:26:20
Tom
Look, I opened, you know, with existential dread and yeah, just, you know, I want to I want to I want to offer the the positive side of this vision is that when when a learner comes into a state of agency, it's it's really the most empowering experience that a young person can have when they begin to understand who they are.
00:10:27:24 - 00:10:29:07
Louka
Mm hmm.
00:10:29:07 - 00:10:54:23
Tom
Where they are in the world and what they have to offer. It's it's super empowering. And the second part of this that I'm excited about is that difference making that is more possible than ever. The young people have access today to tools that allow them to make a difference. Scientifically.
00:10:55:14 - 00:10:57:03
Louka
Legislatively, Yeah.
00:10:57:07 - 00:11:37:23
Tom
Socially, climate. On on every front. It's more possible for an individual young person and especially a collective of young people to engage in work that matters to them and to their community and make a tangible benefit. And I think that's enormously exciting and that's why we try to lift up stories of young people that that that are changing the world and show that that's possible.
00:11:37:23 - 00:11:52:03
Tom
And if we can help more kids live into that sense of possibility and not just the existential dread that they're inheriting from us, but that we called it Schools Alive with possibility.
00:11:53:00 - 00:11:53:15
Louka
That's beautiful.
00:11:53:18 - 00:12:13:14
Tom
You find schools like that that invite young people into difficult questions that easy answers and and then help them frame work important to them and their community and see the benefits of contribution. I just I can't think of anything more rewarding than that.
00:12:14:19 - 00:12:50:13
Louka
Now. That's so great. I completely agree with you. I feel like it schools as centers, centers of human connectedness. And therefore the question isn't what's broken? How do we fix it? It's what's possible. Who cares? And how do we create that together? You know, And I mean, young people today, gosh, there's a lot on their plates, you know, not least of all kind of the dangerous slide towards nihilism, you know, which is well, you know, you guys stuffed it up for us, you know, the generations before.
00:12:50:13 - 00:13:10:17
Louka
And and yet when you when you speak with young people like that, those voices, Tom, the that is so critical because and often in our work what we'll do is we'll ask we'll say who you know, we'll work out who the oldest person in the room is, and we will honor them as the elder in the room. And then, of course, we work out who the youngest person is.
00:13:10:17 - 00:13:26:13
Louka
And of course, a lot of our work and methodology is co-design. They won't be surprised to know because we think, you know, how do we put the opportunities in the middle of the room and actually sit around them and build together? I really feel it's the only way. Again, nothing about us without us, you know, and young people have so much to contribute.
00:13:27:06 - 00:14:05:08
Louka
The other piece I think that I reflect on quite often, Tom, is that as someone that is very intellectual and cognitive and just a downright nerd, to be honest with you. And, you know, I see you as well, Tom, But, you know, I like reading a lot of books and a lot of ideas. It's just for test. What I've really understood is actually there's something about embodiment, you know, or embodied cognition that we're really starting to understand, you know, the extended mind, you know, conception, but also like, how do we how do we realize that actually deep, deep down far in, you know, it's about who we are, not about what we know.
00:14:05:08 - 00:14:21:00
Louka
And, you know, this is why the new credential space is interesting for us both in the work we do, because for so long it's been like, well, what do you know? So tell me what's you know, show me what you know. You know. But now, of course, with you know, as Tony Wagner often says, it's like, well, it's about what you do with what you know.
00:14:21:04 - 00:14:37:20
Louka
And of course, no one disagrees with that. Of course it is. But actually, there's some there's a piece beyond that, which is, you know, who am I choosing to be as I do things with what I know? So this is kind of the identity piece, the contribution piece coupled with skill set. So it's mindset, skill set, knowledge set.
00:14:38:13 - 00:15:07:12
Louka
And I really feel like if we can get great education has always gotten to that level of depth, I feel. And of course it's just been because of the legacy systems and particularly the credentialing systems that we've created. You know, at worst they take a multi dimensional human being that's irreducibly unique and turn them into a single number, you know, and perhaps at best or better, is seeing this idea that actually what's ALS to do.
00:15:08:13 - 00:15:27:19
Louka
You know and I know you've done a lot of work with wayfinding in particular, and how do you support young people to design their way forward? You know, it's not that you find your purpose all of a sudden, Oh, there it is. It's over there by that tree. It's, you know, we experiment and I think that's why the field of design and our colleagues at the D School, I think are doing such wonderful work in that space.
00:15:27:19 - 00:15:48:16
Louka
But I guess that's my question to you is about the credentials in particular. Like, what are you seeing that's working in service of the transformation agenda, in particular? And just before you give a great answer, Tom, just on me, but I'll make an edit.
00:15:48:23 - 00:16:32:24
Tom
Thanks. I want to answer with the sense of confidence and then a question, right. I am confident that we are in a period where we're inventing new and better ways to communicate human capability that that will send it into the background courses and grades and and test scores that the traditional forms of talent transmission for for the last 150 years.
00:16:32:24 - 00:17:21:14
Tom
And I do believe that the digital credentials based on demonstrated competence writing in an open and interoperable learning in employment records will will give us a much more full of much more complete way to to curate the way we share our capabilities with others, whether that's a college or an employer or a potential partner scholarship organization. However, I guess I'm old enough now that I worry about unintended consequences.
00:17:21:14 - 00:18:13:14
Tom
And yeah, and I write as in in real time, as we're designing new credentialing systems to better capture and communicate a high school experience, I worry that we will recreate a new system of standardized assessments, just smaller chunks instead of a three hour. And of course, exam, we'll we'll have 30, 15 minute credential exams. And so I think one of the design questions of our day is can we create a credentialing system that that creates a positive spiral of deeper learning, not a negative spiral of of of dead and regurgitation.
00:18:13:14 - 00:18:26:15
Tom
So I think that's a question that we just have to keep fresh and in front of us as we're inventing new systems.
00:18:26:15 - 00:18:27:06
Louka
Yeah, I feel like.
00:18:27:09 - 00:18:35:13
Tom
I'm excited about all the credentialing, the projects that were involved in, but I am I'm mindful of how to make this generative.
00:18:35:22 - 00:18:36:10
Louka
Yes.
00:18:38:05 - 00:18:47:08
Tom
We're right. Rather than something that deteriorates into another system that we just have to reform the place 20 to 20 years from now.
00:18:47:15 - 00:19:11:01
Louka
Well, I remember, you know, walking into a high tech, high tome and Larry Rosenstock would always stop and point above his door where he had Campbell's law just, you know, printed out across five, you know, sheets of paper, you know, the idea that as soon as we have a metric towards which we aspire, it begins to corrupt the system within which it operates.
00:19:11:15 - 00:19:32:13
Louka
And it's such a powerful way to think about, okay, well, if this is what success is, if we're not careful, we orient everything that way and we actually forget about the actual activity that gets us to the success, we start to try to shortcut problematically. So. So I feel like that is one of the challenges for, I think, everyone working in the new metrics, new credential space.
00:19:32:13 - 00:20:06:02
Louka
I do like the shift from a testing to recognition and and from, you know, in some ways to what's evidencing. I think it's a far better way to think about how yeah, the way that we try to broaden and I would say humanize, although that triggers some people that really humanize the system so they become more human centered in their design away from, in some ways the competition towards a more well, actually, here's what, here's what's mine to do.
00:20:06:02 - 00:20:23:01
Louka
And, you know, if we think about the IKEA guy, you know, that beautiful Japanese principle that I often share it through my work because I just think it sums it up, you know, what am I good at? What can I get paid for? The professional side coupled with what do I love? And then ultimately, what does the world need?
00:20:23:19 - 00:20:44:16
Louka
And it's such a I just feel like it's system failure time when we have young people who are placed in these positions where they choose not to study something that brings them life, that makes them feel fully alive, you know, a passion because they think if they study a different subject, the system will reward them more highly because they're good at it.
00:20:45:03 - 00:21:03:23
Louka
And I feel like that line that we've drawn, which is about what are you good at, what can you get paid for, is the legacy of mass education systems. I'm very pro employment, don't get me wrong. Like having a good job is one is the most powerful way to create meaning in your life and to contribute back into an economy in a marketplace.
00:21:03:23 - 00:21:36:00
Louka
But it's not sufficient unless that role includes your life, includes other aspects. You know? Yes, it's about moving towards more and more, doing what you love. But I think stoically, because I've been informed by that group of thinkers, it's also loving what you do, you know, appreciating, appreciating what's in your life and choosing to be the person you aspire to be, you know, as much as that's possible in a world that's overwhelmed with existential dread and anxiety, frankly, as well.
00:21:36:00 - 00:22:02:22
Louka
We haven't spoken about mental health, but but, you know, the World Health Organization already talking a bit about that being the greatest global burden of disease, being depression, not some of the other physical ailments that we have, but some of these psychological ones. So I wonder about credentials as being one of the ways that we can unlock, I think the way that systems have worked and frankly, that the hidden grammar, which is what's the school for?
00:22:02:22 - 00:22:25:15
Louka
Well, we say it's for the whole child, but actually we're still going to give you a number at the end of the day. And everyone knows that. And even, you know, hardworking educators know that and they want their young people to succeed. So of course you're going to use the metric. So I'm very and in some work happening down here with with a group, I'm involved in loading Crates Australia that are doing some really interesting work in that space.
00:22:25:15 - 00:22:48:22
Louka
How do you create a new recognition system for our country down here? What might that look like? How to lend profiles, passports, portfolios and eventually wallets, you know, play a role as part of the new learning economies, you know, space and skills gaps, all that equity, all that space. It's it's exciting. But I agree with you. I think there's some we have to not just re-inflate the same challenges perhaps.
00:22:51:04 - 00:23:31:07
Tom
Our friends at the big picture in this case big picture Australia have created an international press where the that we think is an interesting model. And the call before this one. Look, I was with our friends at Da Vinci schools in Los Angeles and they build a spiral of ikigai. They begin inviting fabulous ninth graders to ask themselves that question of of who am I and what am I good at and what do I care about and what how could I turn that into a sustainable business model?
00:23:31:20 - 00:24:31:11
Tom
And so I love the way they're thinking about not only educational experiences, but incorporating work based learning. So engaging with the community so that there's community based learning experiences that are also part of this ikigai spiral. And they'll they'll capture those work based learning experiences in our portfolio. And so I think combining traditional uses of credentials with evidence of experiences and including portfolios is going to be in a in a this extended transcript and into a learner record that incorporates multiple forms of evidence that I think more fully allow young people to express who they are and where and how they have made a difference and, and then to express their their aspirations for for
00:24:31:11 - 00:24:34:05
Tom
future contribution and in new and better ways.
00:24:35:07 - 00:24:43:23
Louka
Yeah, it's obvious to me that that sounds like fabulous work. I must go and and, and see that in in Los Angeles. I feel like the.
00:24:44:07 - 00:25:12:13
Tom
Challenges we have to build a marketplace that is right where these these become new communication mechanisms that are recognized by multiple parties. And yeah so that's that's the the challenge is to make these simple, understandable, interoperable, verifiable, meaningful, trustworthy. Yeah, I think that's one of the top design challenges of this decade.
00:25:13:06 - 00:25:36:05
Louka
I agree. I feel like, well, I'm the work of the Learning Economy Foundation in particular. I'm really interested in that, that idea of how do you create open standards, interoperable systems where things actually can speak to each other. You need to think eco systemically about this. Otherwise we end up with a thousand flowers, beautiful, blooming. But of course there's no coherence anymore.
00:25:36:05 - 00:25:55:03
Louka
Easy to say, very difficult to do. And I think long slow engagement co-design work is the way forward there. So I feel like the the other piece on the credentials is if you've got a thousand learner wallets all in a portfolio, it's going into a university. How on earth are you know, this is one of the interesting questions.
00:25:55:03 - 00:26:28:20
Louka
How how does admissions come with that? And the answer, frankly, is eventually, increasingly, you know, looking at automation and we haven't spoken to that that much in our conversation, but, you know, generative AI, you know, November 30th, 2022 is a date that my, my, my friends, you know, have marked in their calendars because there's before that moment and after it, not because new tech happened, but because the you know, the paywall was removed in some ways.
00:26:28:20 - 00:26:38:21
Louka
And so chatbot, you know, based on 3.5 Openai AI educators are paying attention as are, you know, big tech companies across you know.
00:26:39:10 - 00:26:40:12
Tom
In a in a new way.
00:26:40:12 - 00:26:42:06
Louka
Yeah, yeah, in a new way.
00:26:42:24 - 00:27:46:09
Tom
And paying attention for a variety of reasons. Right. But yeah, A.I. has been pervasive for four or five years now in every, every sector, every, every facet of life has become computational. So that so that's the first reaction that I want to stress that every field of endeavor, social impact projects, every form of enterprise is now computational. And so the first implication is that we, the core human development goals now must include the ability to name and frame a project or a problem to work with a diverse team, including smart tools to produce value for a community.
00:27:47:06 - 00:28:16:24
Tom
So I think that's the first implication of life with AI, is that school has has to be about problem framing first and foremost. We've just never historically invited kids into framing problems. We give them small bite sized problems with the right answer, so invite them in to framing problems. Invite them to work in diverse teams, including smart tools to produce value for our community.
00:28:16:24 - 00:28:39:02
Tom
So think of that as the entrepreneurial mindset. So I think that's the first implication. But the second implication is that as I saw evidence like 70 days ago, 80 days ago, these tools now threaten traditional pedagogy and.
00:28:39:07 - 00:28:40:04
Louka
Oh yeah, and.
00:28:41:01 - 00:29:07:12
Tom
In ways that most people didn't imagine a few months ago. Yeah, right. It's sort of a for English teachers, a lot of there are lesson plans or book reports sort of went out the window. Look, I, I, I saw a survey last week that about a third of college students are already using chat CBT for their assignments. So this went zero to high penetration.
00:29:07:12 - 00:29:26:01
Tom
And in a matter of weeks, I don't think we've ever seen anything like that before. Back to that hyper connected world that we that we live in now. And so I think you and I agree that banning tools like that's not the right answer, but it.
00:29:26:02 - 00:29:26:11
Louka
Can.
00:29:26:11 - 00:29:39:03
Tom
Be what can we acknowledge that embracing it and learning to use it is is an interesting new challenge.
00:29:39:03 - 00:30:10:12
Louka
And I think some of the again, I think it really comes back to mindset. You know, if we see this as a as a danger to our ways of doing being, teaching, assessing it is but you know, like if you but if you see it as a possibility to your ways of being teaching, learning, doing it is. And so there's this idea that actually how, how we frame this as an opportunity rather than a problem to dismiss or disruptive that we don't want to deal with.
00:30:11:20 - 00:30:35:11
Louka
I mean, I think, you know, in this happening there in the U.S. as well as it is here in Australia, you know, big jurisdictions have just banned banned it outright. And I think I would say that those are temporary while they try to work out actually how do you know? I've long said, Tom, and I'm sure you agree with this, that what we call resourcefulness and enterprise in the real world, we call cheating in schools.
00:30:35:11 - 00:30:57:22
Louka
And, you know, it's kind of bizarre, you know, and the old remember the old days when you'd say all like great pedagogy is asking non-google about questions that were there were non search engine questions. Now the question is, well, actually good pedagogy increasingly is, you know, asking questions that go beyond basic computation to ones that are have ethics, have the social or the emotional aspects all involved.
00:30:57:24 - 00:31:12:07
Louka
And so it's a very exciting and terrifying moment simultaneously, I think, for for schools and workplaces and, you know, Google, you know, for the search engine because computation is coming, it's here.
00:31:12:23 - 00:31:51:12
Tom
But I do think there's a a strong parallel with the use of calculators in schools. Yeah, I'm I'm very much in favor of teaching mathematics as if computers existed. I think that's about half of what is taught in the United States in mathematics is not useful. It's it's the rote memorization of hand calculation routines that no one ever uses.
00:31:51:12 - 00:32:25:22
Tom
And it's become a barrier. It's the reason most kids hate math and and don't do well, because what we teach is so irrelevant to real life. And I'm saying that as an engineer and as a former finance guy and, you know, I haven't tackled a polynomial in 40 years, so I'm comfortable with a new mental model that I have developed on how we should teach mathematics, particularly math modeling in the age of computers.
00:32:26:06 - 00:32:50:19
Tom
Yeah, I would admit that I'm still because we're only like eight weeks into this still developing a mental model of how we ought to use generative tools like, like Djibouti, because I firmly believe in the importance of writing and learning how to write as a as a core form of of human expression, of understanding who you are and what you think and know about the world.
00:32:50:22 - 00:32:51:10
Louka
Yes.
00:32:51:14 - 00:33:39:06
Tom
And so that mental model is being challenged by this new tool. And I think that's true for most educators around the world. And I've come to early on easy Truth with with some of the guidelines that you described, I'd like students to become comfortable using these generative tools. And simultaneously, I very much want them to be able to to express themselves in in writing proficiently without without using external tools.
00:33:39:06 - 00:34:17:09
Tom
Anyway, I'm just acknowledging that I'm early and and having a new mental model and understanding how public systems will deploy that that sort of a mental model that embraces a new set of tools. And I think we can agree that these capabilities are going to keep coming faster and faster and that it just means we we're going to have to be more agile than we've ever been at really conceptualizing what a learning journey looks like and the ways in which tools are incorporated into that.
00:34:17:09 - 00:34:48:21
Louka
Some. Absolutely. And you know, here's to neurogenesis, you know what I mean? Like the mental models changing, there's a lot going on, a lot of brains around the world right now, including my own and yours. I just want to reflect on something you've said, you know, really like y y right? Y write an essay y put down your thoughts in a coherent, compelling way because that is a modality that helps us learn how to think and how to think for ourselves, you know?
00:34:48:21 - 00:35:07:03
Louka
So that's the first piece in this, you know, all these assessments. Yes, they are about the products, but why do the products, you know, actually the process now, I mean, that's the big opportunity here. This is the product. I can press a button and there's my product at home. So all of a sudden, our gaze that was always on the product is a proxy for process.
00:35:07:03 - 00:35:30:15
Louka
Now somehow needs to shift towards will process. And again, that means formative assessment, It means evidencing as opposed to just taking a single point in time. High stakes assessment, closed book. You know, I think that's such a I think that's a benefit that we should really try to unpack. I mean, the other piece I often think about is cognitive load theory when we discuss because, you know, I disagree with people that say, oh, you don't need any knowledge.
00:35:30:15 - 00:36:05:03
Louka
Some knowledge is ubiquitous. You just need skill. Set a skill to find the knowledge. And I say, Well, yes, that's true, but you know, the knowledge of reading comprehension, for example, I believe is a key and the threshold argument is one I subscribe to, which is if you are if your cognition is too overloaded because you haven't reached automaticity in some of the basic calculations on the basic language structures or analysis, you can't do discernment well, you can't do critical thinking well, and you know, this is why.
00:36:05:03 - 00:36:27:23
Louka
RC I've always been, you know, I'm an applied linguist, is one of my hats in, you know, learning how to speak. I'm a drama teacher to learning how to speak, right? RC precedes literacy, and so are we actually asking the right questions and doing Socratic seminar and engaging in these participatory pedagogies more. I mean with chat CBT here, isn't it?
00:36:28:02 - 00:36:58:23
Louka
I mean, it's going to be painful, but it's also very exciting that we can, we can actually shift and say, well now if we do this right and redesign it right, we can elevate what I would consider the most human aspects of this experience of life and our experiences of learning and frankly, of contribution and workforce, you know, And so doing the kind of routine always that trend has been really clear to, you know, the routine manual and cognitive has has been left to now.
00:36:58:23 - 00:37:23:01
Louka
I and so it's the non-routine, it's the emergent, it's the truly creative. You know, I feel like CBT gives us the opportunity to become more creative and be more creative hustlers to use, you know. Sam Seidel's beautiful Frank book, you know, like this idea of, yeah, it's how do you take this idea, use the tools available as a young person and then create something remarkable.
00:37:23:01 - 00:37:34:09
Louka
And I mean, there are examples, just example after example in every community of young people taking this so far beyond what we thought it might have been useful.
00:37:34:09 - 00:38:03:06
Tom
Let's let's also acknowledge that we've been talking about some of the big design challenges of this decade. So the design challenge here is to invent a new form of ethics, right? A new way to be together collectively with these new tools. And what we need a new code of ethics around human expression, writing and art and music. We need new business models.
00:38:03:15 - 00:38:14:16
Tom
Yes, around these that encourage rather than discouraging human expression. And we need a new way to acknowledge contributions both man and machine.
00:38:14:16 - 00:38:15:03
Louka
Yeah.
00:38:15:20 - 00:38:26:23
Tom
To new forms of human expression. But the other aspect of ethics is that I'm afraid AI's accelerating a winner take all or winner take most economy.
00:38:27:05 - 00:38:27:13
Louka
Yeah.
00:38:27:21 - 00:39:00:06
Tom
And. And so I'm really disturbed about the level of inequality in the way many of the factors we talked about at the opening pandemic, climate change, as well as A.I., are ratcheting inequity. And so, in addition to a new ethic for this age, we need feels like a new economy for this age, one that is, as you said beautifully, is reflective of a more of a collective than the individual.
00:39:00:06 - 00:39:02:07
Tom
And so we have work to do.
00:39:02:15 - 00:39:45:22
Louka
Yeah, maybe so, just a little. But I do. I'm an optimist about this. I do feel like these tools, if deployed properly, I completely concur with the view on ethics, you know, who owns what. And we are seeing, I think, a such such a chasm now between the truly creative class and then the consumerist class. And that's that's a danger when you have eight people owning the same amount of wealth, then, you know, then the 3.5 other billion, you know, poor people and that's that's a design flaw at the heart, I think, of our society that ought to be rectified in some way.
00:39:45:22 - 00:40:04:17
Louka
And I'm not sure exactly how that happens. But, you know, people like Mariana Mazzucato and Professor Kate Raworth and others, these are female professors of economics. They've got some really good things to say about it. And so I would just point to their work and say, All right, donate economics, social foundation, ecological ceiling. How do we do that?
00:40:04:17 - 00:40:24:10
Louka
How do the metrics change at a city level, at a state level district? You know, national, national and international? And I don't know when we're having a conversation about the next time, I think, you know, we'll be thinking about, I think, transformative regeneration will probably be a frame I think we might need by then, which is not sustainability.
00:40:24:10 - 00:40:38:19
Louka
No, no. We need to regenerate. And that can that's not just an ecological framing, that's also a human framing. That's a way of thinking about equity. We need regenerative practices here. Yeah.
00:40:39:22 - 00:40:44:10
Tom
Let's add that to the big design challenges of our day.
00:40:44:23 - 00:40:47:19
Louka
Yeah, well.
00:40:48:02 - 00:41:12:03
Tom
And I guess a wonderful opportunity is the chance to invite young people in so many schools in post-secondary institutions into into that work. We think that's a beautiful way to frame up a secondary and post-secondary education around shared global goals.
00:41:12:14 - 00:41:37:11
Louka
Yeah, there's a real conversation about power, I think. Tom That's taking place and needs to take place. And, you know, this is like, are we going to people going to give power to educators, give power to young people, to communities, give power? Are those that hold it, willing to share it? I mean, that's a really interesting I think the only way we do transformation is we repurpose, we repower, and then we we practice.
00:41:37:20 - 00:41:59:00
Louka
And that's just a quote. The big change work out of the UK. I really think that's the way that we transform our world, our systems, our community and maybe even Tom ourselves. Who knows? Tom, it's been such a wonderful delight to speak with you after, you know, a couple of years. Well, actually, just a year since we last spoke at South by Southwest.
00:41:59:00 - 00:42:19:11
Louka
But I really appreciate the work that you and the teams are getting smart. And I just think your your gentle yet beautifully critical way that you think about the future of learning. So thank you so much for sharing with us today and it's been great to be part of this conversation as well and support the work that you're all up to there.
00:42:19:22 - 00:42:33:18
Tom
It's great to be with you, Luca. Thanks for your beautiful vision of of what's possible in learning. Can we consider this conversation to be continued?
00:42:34:13 - 00:42:57:06
Louka
I mind definitely. Now, you know, you're ending your day over there. I'm starting mine. I'm mulling on all these things of the day. But yeah, definitely some some more deep work to come. And, you know, long term, long term work for the long term people. Tom, to quote Navarre, that's that's the way to go. So it's a real pleasure.
00:42:57:15 - 00:42:59:04
Louka
So next time.
00:42:59:04 - 00:43:08:06
Tom
Thank you. Until next time.