S1E1 - Dr Kathy Hirsh-Pasek: The Power of Play
Show notes hereDr Kathy Hirsh-Pasek is a distinguished American developmental psychologist renowned for her extensive research in early childhood development, language acquisition, and the role of play in learning. She holds the position of Stanley and Debra Lefkowitz Professor of Psychology at Temple University, where she directs the Infant Language Laboratory. Additionally, she serves as a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution.
Throughout her career, Dr Hirsh-Pasek has authored 17 books and over 250 publications, contributing significantly to the fields of language development and playful learning. Her notable works include “Einstein Never Used Flashcards,” which received the Books for a Better Life Award in 2003, and “Becoming Brilliant: What Science Tells Us About Raising Successful Children,” which appeared on The New York Times Best Seller list in education.  Her contributions have earned her numerous accolades, such as the American Psychological Association’s Bronfenbrenner Award for Lifetime Contribution to Developmental Psychology in the Service of Science and Society, and the Association for Psychological Science’s James McKeen Cattell Fellow Award.
Beyond her academic achievements, Dr Hirsh-Pasek co-founded the Learning Science Exchange Fellowship, uniting scientists, journalists, policymakers, and entertainers to disseminate learning science to educators. She also initiated Playful Learning Landscapes, a project that redesigns public spaces with scientifically informed designs to enhance educational and social opportunities.
In 2021, she was elected to the National Academy of Education, underscoring her impact on educational research and policy. Her recent work includes the book “Making Schools Work: Bringing the Science of Learning to Joyful Classroom Practice,” co-authored with educators and scientists to promote engaging and effective teaching methods. Dr Hirsh-Pasek frequently shares her expertise through media outlets like NPR and The New York Times, and contributes to the Brookings Institution’s blog, bridging the gap between scientific research and public understanding.
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Amie Fabry (00:07)
Hello friends and welcome to the Leading the Early Years for the Future podcast. I am your host, Dr. Amy Fabry, and I am absolutely delighted to introduce our very first guest on the podcast, who is a researcher, author, and scientific entrepreneur. Cathy Hirsch-Pasik is joining me today. She is a professor of psychology at Temple University and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institute.
She's also written over 250 publications and has 14 books. Thank you so much for joining me Cathy.
Kathy (00:41)
Amy, it is such a pleasure to be here, but you have to know what the real qualification is. I had three sons, have three sons, and they all got big on me. So I'm thrilled to say that I now have two little people again. So now, now I'm on a roll again, but you know, that's the real qualification that you have kids and grandkids.
Amie Fabry (00:54)
yeah.
It's so true, right? I remember even myself as a young educator, you know, working with kindergarten students and thinking I knew so much about, you know, child development. And then I had my own children and I went, wow, you know, there's just so much more to understand.
Kathy (01:15)
That's right, that they really raise us, we don't raise them, you know?
Amie Fabry (01:19)
It is so true. They have such wisdom and they give us so many insights. So I love that you mentioned that. Cathy, I first came across your research on guided play, I think probably about 10 years ago. I was working as an academic teaching in undergrad and post-grad early childhood. And I just fell in love with your research. So I've been following your work ever since and I am just so excited to have this conversation with you today.
Kathy (01:25)
gas.
You're making my day. You're making my day.
Amie Fabry (01:45)
Good, good. Before we dive into your research, I'm really curious, know, where as human beings, we're multifaceted people. And I know you have extraordinary work skills and research talents, but do you have a hidden talent, something that is perhaps a skill or an interest that might sit outside your work, something even perhaps that people don't know about you?
Kathy (02:06)
Well, I have to say there's actually a lot of them, to be honest. Yeah, so let me just fire off a few here. One is that I have this uncanny ability to still see the world as a four-year-old. And that means that a lot of the things that we as adults take for granted in the everyday moments, what I try to do is still retain the sense of awe as I go through the world.
Amie Fabry (02:10)
Amazing.
huh.
Kathy (02:35)
So that's kind of a hidden talent that drives a lot of my friends insanely crazy, but they put up with me. I also love tennis. I am a tennis junkie and I'm hoping that I can always find a game wherever I am. So that's kind of cool. I also pride myself on finding the best gluten-free products wherever I am and the best
Hot chocolate.
Hehehehe.
Amie Fabry (03:09)
that for so many reasons. I can totally relate to the finding the awe and it's something that I work on myself but you know the world is such a beautiful place and I think when we can find those amazing moments you know those little glimmers or those moments of awe I think they're just so profound and you know.
Kathy (03:28)
And I feel like we sometimes pound that out of kids, you know, and make them be more like adults. And really it would be so much more fun if we could be more like kids. So I guess that's where I'm
Amie Fabry (03:41)
I totally agree with you, totally agree with you. I also relate on the gluten-free hunting, I have to say. Always, always a bit of fun, always a bit of a challenge, right? So let's dive in and talk about early childhood. I would really love to know based on your really extensive experience, your research and expertise, why do you believe the early years are such a pivotal time in, I guess in life?
but also for our children.
Kathy (04:09)
Well, I've always thought that how you build the foundation matters. And whatever you do after you've built the foundation is a lot harder, you know? So you take a house, you know, if you build a house on quicksand, it kind of doesn't matter what you put as you build up. You can make it the most gorgeous house in the world and a couple years later, it'll just start sinking. So I think the same thing is true of development.
Amie Fabry (04:15)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kathy (04:39)
I think a strong foundation in learning how to get along with other people, know, what I call collaboration, language skills, communication, learning the content that you need to know. But sometimes it's not what we think of as adults. Sometimes we're much more sophisticated than adults. You know, they're sitting here talking to us about two and two, and we're trying to understand how a worm just like comes out of the ground and goes back in again.
Do you know what I mean? That's amazing. How do these things do that? So we get that. We are brilliant. I know adults don't think so, but we are brilliant critical thinkers. I always think of the story of my granddaughter called me one day with a critical, critical problem. And the ball that she had had rolled under the couch. This is a disaster, especially when you're three and three quarters, as I was told.
And I said to her, Ellie, what are we going to do? And she said to me, I don't know. My projected arm can't reach the ball. So the first thing I'm thinking is your projected arm. Okay. So I'm to, I'm going to go with it, man. I'm flying with it. How do we extend your projected arm? And so then she came up with critical thinking here. She came up with, well, what about a spatula? Let's try it.
Amie Fabry (05:55)
Yep.
Kathy (06:07)
Well, it didn't make the projected arm quite long enough. So then she went for a broom. Boom! We got the ball out from under the couch. So critical thinking. Who's more creative than kids? You know, creative innovation. And to let them muck around. mean, good scientists do a lot of creative innovation, mucking around. And finally, this confidence to try something, even if you'll fail, you know? We overprotect so much.
America, honestly, we're the worst at it in the US. We protect kids so much. Australia, I love the way you deal. You let the kids climb a tree. And you know, they might not make it all the way up. That's okay. But you guys are a little more adventurous than I think we are in the US. We don't have to have rubber floors and ground for everything. So I'm so proud of what you do in Australia. But anyway.
Amie Fabry (07:00)
Thanks.
Kathy (07:04)
Those are what I call the six C's. And I think in our whole life, building those foundational skills, they really help kids grow up strong. We can put the accessories in, we can build on top of them, but nothing happens really if you get the early years wrong. Can we make up for it? Well, we can make up for anything. You know, we're pliable, we're human beings, we're adaptable, but can we make up for it as well?
Not really.
Amie Fabry (07:36)
Yeah, Totally agree with everything you said. Thank you for sharing your perspective. And I think, you know, one of the things that's really stood out to me is, you know, obviously understanding that the foundation is so important for building for our children. But I think also as a mum in particular, I've seen the real benefit, I guess, or the impact that those early experiences have on children's identity, you know, and you're talking about confidence.
Kathy (07:55)
Isn't
Yes. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (08:04)
to actually just have a go at things and not hold back. And sadly, I think I have seen that wane a little in my children. And so it's become really more pertinent to me just how important those earlys are for all of the skill development, but also for holding on and actually nurturing who our young people are as individuals. so that they see themselves as being really capable and competent and hold onto that confidence. Because as you said, they just come up with the...
most innovative ideas and I think it's really sad if they lose that. Can you tell us more about your work specifically? I mean there's a lot of it but you know and it's so fascinating to me you know as an educator through that lens but I'd love to you know really unpack some of your work that you've been doing particularly around
Kathy (08:34)
Good.
Thank
Sure. So I'll give you two answers to that question. So I mean, the first part of my work, a lot of it was spent on early language development. You know, what do we need to do to secure the best kind of language opportunities for young kids? And actually, the answer is quite easy. It's have conversations with kids, even before you think they can't have conversations. The conversation is the most basic thing ever.
Amie Fabry (09:01)
Mm-hmm.
Kathy (09:22)
That interaction is really important and sometimes, sometimes in the, you know, the era of so-called social media, which, you know, isn't in the same room with you, so it's not totally as social as you might think, we lose that connection with other people and we lose that connection with our kids. And it's so, so very important for building brains, literally, literally, and for building a language structure.
So I try to study that for many years to understand when do kids learn what and what's the magic sauce. More recently, I've used the language work as a kind of platform for beginning to understand what we could do better in education in and out of school. And when I think about that, it boils down to what I call the three-part equation.
Amie Fabry (10:20)
Mm-hmm.
Kathy (10:20)
And a three-part equation is first, we need to be sensitive to where people, our kids, us, everyone is coming from culturally and the community values that we hold near and dear. That's kind of our glue. That's our context. We don't often see the context because it's kind of like trying to understand your glasses while you're looking through them. Do you know what I mean? And then we can add to that
what I call the how of learning. So synthesizing across really thousands and thousands of articles, instead of asking what don't we know, I did the very unusual scientific game of asking, what do we know? And what we do know in 2024 at the brink of 2025 is that human beings learn best when they're active, not passive. And that means minds on.
Amie Fabry (11:06)
Thank
Yeah.
Kathy (11:19)
We learn best when we are engaged, not distracted. We learn best when something's meaningful to us, which gets back to this cultural community beliefs and values. We learn best when we are in social interaction. We learned that in spades during COVID. When we weren't in school, we weren't with other kids, we didn't learn as much. We learn best.
when it's iterative, we learn the same thing in many ways. We learn best when it is joyful, not when it's painstaking, despite what people think. So think about the way our schools look right now, you know, with kids, even with young kids. We're not as interactive as we ought to be. The kids are often sitting in circle time, a lot of the time, they're doing parallel work.
Amie Fabry (11:54)
Yeah.
Kathy (12:13)
not interacting with each other. So, like around the world, it's like we took these characteristics of learning and we thought, let's see if we can devise something that is the total opposite of how human brains learn. let's call it a school. So that's kind of what we did. So if the first two parts are, you know, contextually, our community, our beliefs, our culture. And the second part is the how of learning.
Amie Fabry (12:15)
Yep.
Kathy (12:42)
Then the third part is the what of learning. And we usually talk about the what of learning as if it's, you know, just reading and math, reading and math, reading and math. Well, we have slammed kids over the last few years with reading and math and reading and math. They're very important. But the bottom line is if you go back to the 60s, you know, if you don't know how to get along with another person and you aren't, you know, collaborating, you're not going to learn language.
Amie Fabry (13:04)
Mm-hmm.
Kathy (13:13)
If you don't know language, that's a game stopper for learning reading or math, because you won't have the vocabulary to do it. If you don't have that content, you will never be a critical thinker or a creative innovator, because both of them require content. And you will never grow the confidence that you need to support your own agency. So the three parts of the equation are community, cultural values and beliefs, plus
Amie Fabry (13:19)
Yeah.
Kathy (13:41)
the how of learning plus the what of learning, which is the 60s. And that's what we've been working on. that's, yeah.
Amie Fabry (13:47)
Yeah, amazing.
Wow, it's brilliant. And I guess, you know, as I'm listening to you speak, I can't help but reflect on, you know, this is so important for children in those early years, you know, to make sense of it in meaningful, active ways, like you're saying, but I can't help but think as you're talking about, you know, the six C's, this is also about, you know, building that foundation that's going to help them in the future, right?
Kathy (14:04)
Yeah, yeah.
yeah, mean, what are the workplaces of the world telling us right now? They're all global, right? Everybody's working in teams. So if you ask somebody, what do do for a job? I'm on the blah, blah team at this. That's collaboration, okay? What do you do? Well, I write and then you can go on from there. People tell you they have to write stuff, right? And orally give stuff. Listen to others. That's communication.
Amie Fabry (14:22)
Yeah.
Kathy (14:45)
If they don't know their content, they're going to be fired real quick. But they're also going to be fired if they don't have the critical thinking to make the right decision at the right time. They're going to be fired if they don't have a creative solution to something that isn't working and if they can't muster some confidence. So the truth of the matter is the six C's were actually, can I have with a friend of mine who, worked with Peter, trucker.
Amie Fabry (14:48)
Yeah.
Mm.
Kathy (15:13)
who was the father of modern management. And she and I were kind of coming up with this in my living room one day. And she said, what you think is important for kids is exactly what we tell business leaders, you know, is important to have a business that works. So yeah, this isn't just about early childhood. Early childhood is preparation for your entire life.
Amie Fabry (15:16)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Hmm, absolutely. It's so true. And I think some of the work that I do, you know, around the early years, you know, and into school is, I say the same thing, you know, we're actually just talking about what's good for human beings, right? You know, to help us actually be fully present, to really engage in meaningful work, to collaborate with others. Like we're actually just talking about good practice for all of us because even as adults, you know, we need the same things in our work, right? To feel valued, but also know we can contribute confidently.
Kathy (15:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (16:07)
to make a difference. need a skill set. We need opportunities to play forward. You know, engaging.
Kathy (16:12)
Well, actually, yeah, I'm actually advocating now for a new thing, which I call adult recess, because I think we'd learn a whole lot of these skills if we had more adult recess time.
Amie Fabry (16:22)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, when we talk about even our own wellbeing, you know, there's a lot more focus now on having that downtime or, you know, the quiet time where you actually think more creatively, you know, and those great ideas come to you. I really love that. That's a great initiative. tell me what led you to do this work? You know, obviously you had that interest in language and...
Kathy (16:24)
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Amie Fabry (16:47)
How did you end up sort of moving into play, I guess, and guided play and the work that you're doing now in schools?
Kathy (16:54)
Well, what's most amazing to me when I was thinking about this three-part equation is take the how of learning. Let's think about it again. To be actively engaged in something meaningful that's socially interactive, iterative and joyful. my gosh. That's the definition of play. So it turns out we came up with something we call guided player playful learning because well,
Amie Fabry (17:12)
Mmm.
Kathy (17:20)
Free play is very, very important and has those characteristics. You can also add a learning goal to it and still pedagogically preserve those features to make it active, engaging, meaningful, socially interactive, iterative, and joyful while you are trying to learn something in math. Now, I don't mean dressing up a math lesson in play clothes. That won't work any more than children will eat chocolate covered broccoli. It will not.
Amie Fabry (17:48)
Yeah.
Kathy (17:50)
work. But what will work is thinking through what kind of fun games you could do. let's just talk about, and adults like this too. I had a real problem once with a group of teachers. I was doing professional development and I made a balloon game. And all you had to do is see which team, collaboration, could communicate with one another, communication, to get the ball, the balloon, to stay in the air the longest.
And you were supposed to count how many times you hit the balloon in the air. Okay. Everyone is excited about this. Our biggest problem that day was getting the adults to stop the balloon game so they could go back to the conference. Okay. Then what did they do? They compared who got the most hits in the balloon game. Then balloon team one said, well, we got 20 more hits than you got. And balloon
Amie Fabry (18:39)
Mmm.
Kathy (18:47)
Balloon Team 2 said, then we are going to try again. This is what happened. Then everyone became competitive and they all started counting more and comparing more. It's amazing what you can do. give you two more examples. One example comes from a first grade teacher called me and said, so you really think I could teach math the number line by putting a number line on the ground?
I've been dealing with this worksheet now for three weeks. I said, well, yeah, I recommend you put the number line on the floor. Just make sure they don't trip on it, you know, and see what happens. You don't have to do much. You don't have to do much, okay? You could put it on in chalk if you want. Okay, what happened? The kids started jumping. They started comparing who jumped farther. Then they started grouping things.
so that five things would be on the five part of the number line, four things would be in the four part. She called me the next week. She said, I said, what happened? She said, my kids learned the number line. I said, that's amazing, congratulations. She said, no, I had spent weeks on a worksheet that didn't work and you got them to learn it in one day. So what happens here is that the kids, they get it, they immediately get it.
It just has to be put in a form that they can understand. So what we're doing now is we're taking that three-part equation and we're now applying it in school environments where so far we're doing the study in four states in the United States. But now eight more states have asked if they can join in. This is a good problem to have. I feel like I...
Amie Fabry (20:33)
Yeah.
Kathy (20:34)
I feel like I created this great air conditioner, you but I only had like four models and then everybody's coming. They're going, hi, we're here. So we're doing it in schools. We're doing it in community settings and studying it there like bus stops, transit stops, sidewalks, libraries, health centers, hospitals, know, affordable housing centers and units. And we're seeing that
Amie Fabry (20:46)
Yeah, what?
Kathy (21:02)
Everybody wants to partake and they help us create these things. So in the school environment, we're working, I know this sounds shocking. We're working with teachers, we're working with administrators and with scientists. And together we come up with something that's evidence-based, but it happens to also be practical. You know, same thing with the community stuff. We're building a better bus stop. We have the community involved, they help design it.
Amie Fabry (21:22)
Yeah, wow.
Kathy (21:31)
And then we're doing the same thing with media to see what we can do to better craft not only TV programs, but what can we do with so-called educational apps. So that's what we're doing now. And that's kind of eating up all my time, but it's so much fun.
Amie Fabry (21:49)
I bet it is. And I can only just, you know, I can hear you talking about the impact this is having, you know, on educators, first and foremost, but children, but I love that you're also looking at community and how we actually bring people together. I think, you know, there's a lot of challenges that still exist around play and embedding play-based learning, particularly in schools, I think.
Kathy (21:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (22:13)
So I love that you're actually expanding even beyond the school walls, you know, to include communities. Because I think, you know, the more as a society, we really understand the importance of play and value that, you know, not only does it create beautiful opportunities for connection, you know, and you can hear that as you're explaining these examples. Even children working with an educator and they're actually involved in coming up with ideas and wanting to connect, I think that's just so powerful.
Kathy (22:32)
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (22:42)
for human beings, know, and collectively across our communities. It's such inspiring work, Cathy. my goodness.
Kathy (22:49)
Thank you, Amy. Thank you. Well, you I think you even taught me about, you know, how in Australia they were talking about intentional play and purposeful play. I think were the terms you used. And I think that's kind of what it is. We call it playful learning because it does have that curricular goal. you know, you can have the truth that you can have any curricular goal and you can get there through this playful learning approach of the three-part equation.
Amie Fabry (23:03)
Yeah.
Kathy (23:15)
It doesn't matter, can do math, social studies, name it. And kids can do unbelievably sophisticated things if we cast it right. And then in the community, you're so right. We have created, as it were, the new piazza. But in the United States, we don't have piazzas, so we just call it public square. But we're creating a new public square. People are getting together again. They're talking with one another, and that's what we want.
And you know, it seems to me that, and I'm very thrilled, you know, that I'll be coming to Australia soon because I think it's just a beautifully fertile environment for all of these ideas because I just feel like you're a culture of explorers, you know, and discovers really anyway. I always describe the difference to my kids when we first visited Australia, which...
We loved, so we kept going back. But I said to them, know, whereas in the United States, they just think they're supposed to conquer nature. I think in Australia, you know that you live with it, which brings a whole wonderful perspective. And maybe some of that is the beauty and incredibleness of the aborigines, know, aboriginal culture. And in New Zealand, the Maori culture that...
you know, seeps in so deeply to the kind of educational systems we can create and that we can make so much more purposeful, intentional and rich.
Amie Fabry (24:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely opportunities here. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but you know, we're talking more and more about it, which is great. Yeah.
Kathy (24:59)
Nothing is perfect. nothing is perfect. But look, we wouldn't have a job if it were perfect. It's all okay. It's all okay.
Amie Fabry (25:05)
No, that is true.
that's, that is true. you know, I look at your work and it is so inspiring, Cathy. And, I really appreciate the, I guess, probably the courage and, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth and describe your own journey, but you know, I'm really cognizant that things like this, these are really interesting initiatives don't just happen by accident or by on their own. It does take, you know, forward thinking, innovative, brave people to do something different.
and to lead this process. and I'm, you're pioneering this work. I, well, from the outside, it looks like it's probably all just been a great success and smooth sailing. I'm sure on the other side, you know, there's probably been some bumps and some challenges along the way. I'm wondering if you'd be happy to share, you know, what are some of the greatest challenges that you've experienced in this work and maybe how did you navigate them?
Kathy (26:02)
Well, you know, I'll say that the hardest one was actually engaging authentically with the word play. A lot of people in a lot of cultures and countries view play as the opposite of work. So it's not taken seriously. And we had to get to a point where
Amie Fabry (26:21)
Yeah.
Kathy (26:28)
Play wasn't just a four-letter word. And that took a lot, know, finally settling on active playful learning. And I was asked by a lot of my colleagues, get that word play out of there. And I said, no, actually, we have to embrace it because play is the way human brains learn. And we can do much more sophisticated things when we're experimenters and discoverers and explorers than we can.
Amie Fabry (26:39)
Yeah.
Kathy (26:58)
when we're just digesting knowledge rather than transforming it, when we're passive rather than have agency. so for me, I think it became almost a mission statement, if you will, to see if we could jump over that barrier. There was also, you know, there's also hesitation in the academy to...
Amie Fabry (27:14)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Kathy (27:26)
collectively identify what we know as opposed to what the next step in the next research project is. And the result is that there is a gap between education departments and psych departments that is humongous. And nobody seems to want to walk in that space. And the science of learning has helped a lot to begin to build bridges, but somebody had to walk on that bridge just to see if it was going to fall.
Amie Fabry (27:56)
Yeah.
Kathy (27:56)
And I'm happy to say I'm still here. There were times when I really worried. I remember the first time I gave the playful learning landscape talk, which was our work in the community with bus stops and you can imagine and supermarkets. my God. So I said to my buddy, Roberta Galinkoff, who's developed all this with me. And I said, okay, we're going to give this talk. And at the end of it, we're going to be fired and kicked out of our entire career.
And then we'll figure out what to do with our life, you know? And so we gave this talk and I swear to God, at the end of the talk, and there were like maybe a thousand people there, were looking at each other like waiting for the bomb to drop. And we got a standing ovation. It was like, my God, you changed the way we're thinking about what is possible. And so I guess, you know, for me as a dreamer,
It's important for all of us to go out of our comfort zone because kids do that all the time unless we restrict them. Now some of it's dangerous. You don't want to have a kid touch fire or jump into the ocean if they don't know how to swim. On the other hand, I think we need to get out of our comfort zone a little and dream bigger than we dream.
Amie Fabry (29:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathy (29:22)
because I'm coming to believe that it's possible. You know, I'll just give you one more story because I'm a storyteller. So when we all started the playful learning landscape, you know, kind of approach, it was a Sunday. And I had the idea, I know, don't laugh about this, but I had the idea that if we just took over Central Park in New York City, that
Amie Fabry (29:30)
Yeah, please.
Kathy (29:52)
that we could put on display what it meant, you know, to have the science of learning for everybody, you know, to just show people how to play with blocks again. But what if all the blocks were green? So that you had to use spatial knowledge to build a tower. And we could show them what engineering really was and where the math was. We could show them what it meant to make something out of play dough and to use Crayola.
Amie Fabry (30:07)
Yeah.
Kathy (30:21)
or to have the world's largest Simon Says game, which actually builds what we call executive function skills, which are attention and memory and impulse control. All right, so this was an insane idea, absolutely insane. And I knew it was insane. I mean, since James and the Giant Peach, nobody took over Central Park. Okay, but I called my buddy who was at the Children's Museum in Manhattan and I said, Andy, what do you think? And there's like silence on the other end of the phone.
And then finally he comes in and he says,
It might just be possible. And that's all I needed to hear. And four of us, we call ourselves the Musketeers. I know there's only three of them, there were four, but we knocked on every door. We got so many people to agree to participate in taking over Central Park at this beautiful, beautiful area called the Bandshell area where the lake is. It's like iconic, you know?
And they kept saying to me, why do you need Central Park? This is New York. I said, I need Central Park because I, honest to God did say this. I said, because if I'm in Sydney, Australia, they will know what Central Park is. And if I take Riverside Park, they will not know what Riverside Park is. So they said, just to get her out of our hair, give the girl Central Park. So they did. And we had, we had 60,000 people show up to our event in Central Park that day.
Amie Fabry (31:33)
Hmm.
Sorry.
Hey.
Kathy (31:51)
We called it the ultimate block party. And I am dying to do this in Sydney. I want this to happen in the greatest park you have in Sydney. Imagine it. Everybody bringing their kids and we had one, this was like fun. We created the museum there, created this like big brain thing. And all the kids got to do was do a chalk filled thing. They would, you know, it was like a chalkboard.
Amie Fabry (32:01)
Amazing.
Yeah.
Kathy (32:20)
and they wrote things on the brain. It was incredible. It would light up and it would connect messages. And we had their scientists and we had brain scientists. And we all just wore white coats that somebody gave us that we put, we finger painted on. So we looked like we were play doctors. And these kids came up to us and asked questions about how their brain grew. I mean, it was amazing.
Amie Fabry (32:39)
Yes.
Kathy (32:48)
And that's what happened. Yeah.
Amie Fabry (32:48)
Wow. my gosh. That's just incredible. What an amazing story. Like I can't, I can't believe that I can cause it's you, but you know, it's just incredible. How amazing. Like 60,000 people that's blowing my mind.
Kathy (33:03)
It blew my mind. just kept, you know, the night before I was like wondering, is anybody going to come? You know, except my family and my tennis group that decided to give up tennis that day to come. And, and, and yes, they, they all showed up and we had like, my God, now you do it with a QR code, but we didn't have it then. But we, you know, you'd have a QR code and say, if you want to learn more about what this is about, go here. We gave out 16,000.
Amie Fabry (33:09)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kathy (33:31)
little pamphlets about the science behind everything. Take it home for free. It was amazing.
Amie Fabry (33:37)
what an incredible learning opportunity, you know, for families and children and all of you even, you know, like, that's just so brilliant. Fascinating. Yes, yes to doing this again in Sydney. I'm all for that. That's going to be really incredible. I love that you sort of said, you know, you had someone who just went, OK, this is possible, you I had to put the idea out there and no one's stopping me. Let's just do it. I love that. That's amazing.
Kathy (33:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amie Fabry (34:03)
it sounds like you're surrounded by some really good people, you know, who think similarly to you and you're obviously seeing such profound impact of all of these initiatives and the response, but is there anything else that sort of sits out that outside that really motivates you to keep going, you know, like to keep thinking big and getting out of bed every day and keep going.
Kathy (34:20)
absolutely.
Sure, every single day, every single day babies are born all over the world. Every single day you can look in the eye of a child and you say, you know, what's the future for that child? How do we make sure that every child has a chance to be happy and healthy thinking, you know, to learn their content, to be a critical thinker and a creative innovator? To me, the greatest gift we can give
Amie Fabry (34:38)
Yeah.
Kathy (34:54)
anyone is to give opportunities to the next generation and then to let them be the ones to build the future. You know, there's a point where all of us will have to say it's not our turn anymore and we want to make sure that when we turn it over to these amazing human beings that are created every day that they dream big about a possible future. So
You know, if you dream it, I really believe it's possible. Sometimes it's a little harder to find the way to make it possible. Grant me, I knocked on a lot of doors for Ultimate Block Party and a lot of school doors that said, you're crazy. But then when they see the results, they're like knocking back at your door and they're saying, do you bring it here?
Amie Fabry (35:40)
Yes.
Amazing. That's such a beautiful, profound purpose, I think, you know, that drives the work you do. I love how big you think. It's just brilliant. How many key learnings really around, I guess, leadership and the role of just being a brave leader to dream big and
Kathy (36:08)
Gosh, you know, I think I think leaders aren't the people who just carry out what's there. I think leaders are the people who see potential potentials and Do what they need to do and create what they need to do to bring people along to the vision, you know I think you have to have a clear vision But as importantly you must communicate that clear vision
And there will be a lot of people around who will try to, you know, put gum in whatever you do because they don't believe it or they can't see it. And that's okay. You know, our job is to offer proof of concepts. And once you have that proof of concept, you can fly. And you know, now I'm in a different place than I was 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. I mean, now I've seen.
Amie Fabry (36:47)
you
Kathy (37:08)
60,000 people show up in Central Park. You now I've seen what can happen in a supermarket in Philadelphia, in Santa Ana, in, you know, in South Africa. And when you start to see that wherever you try these things, people get joy and they start behaving differently with their kids, you think, wow.
Amie Fabry (37:30)
Yeah.
Kathy (37:37)
And now, you know, these are just, these are just palettes. Do you know what I mean? Like somebody called me the other day, I don't know if it'll happen, but they called me from the X Prize. And they said, wow, do you think it would be possible to do an X Prize around learning in the community? And sure it is because in Sydney, you'll have different dreams about which spaces are everyday spaces for people there than we do in New York.
Amie Fabry (38:03)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kathy (38:05)
we do in Philadelphia or we do in London. Do you know what I mean? And nothing, none of it is exclusionary because it's all based on the three-part equation of the context you live in, the how of learning and the what of learning. So what we've done in a way is we've just infused the science of learning, what we know, into all these spaces that otherwise were operating independently and that now have connective tissue.
Amie Fabry (38:35)
Yeah, beautiful. that's amazing. I love that. You know, I love that you've got a really clear vision and I could hear it when you were explaining sort of your purpose for doing this work that guides you and communicating that and bringing people along and, you know, actually trying stuff and seeing what happens and then you see. Yeah.
Kathy (38:52)
And sometimes you want, sometimes it'll fail. But, you know, I will say this, it's really interesting. Once I started Playful Learning Landscapes in particular, you know, one of the projects we did was called Parkopolis. And in Parkopolis, we created a life-size board game. But I had learned that kids in fourth to sixth grade in the United States, so how old are they? Maybe, you know, 10 to 12 is when they first encounter fractions.
Amie Fabry (39:05)
Yep.
Wow.
Kathy (39:19)
And fractions and decimals are really, really hard for kids. So I looked at dice and I thought to myself, do dice have to be dice? Like, do they have to be one to six and one to six? Or could they be one to six and a quarter and a half and three quarters? Right. Once you start thinking this way, is a bench really a bench? What could you do with a bench? Well, we created puzzle benches, maps,
Amie Fabry (39:38)
Yeah, it went.
Kathy (39:49)
benches. You should see the number of benches out there now.
nothing is as it seems, you I guess. Yeah, that's the message.
Amie Fabry (39:57)
No.
Do you have any advice that you would give to others who are looking to, lead some change or start a new initiative who might be, worried or doubtful what would be your advice?
Kathy (40:12)
I mean, we're always taught to be doubtful. I mean, really, we're always so worried about where we'll step and who will offend. So I think we have to go out of our comfort zone a little bit. That's the first message. I think the second is, it's OK to see differently, but be informed when you do it. Have the background.
Amie Fabry (40:21)
Mm.
Kathy (40:41)
None of this would have worked if I didn't have the background, if I didn't know the science. So, you know, refine your expertise or partner with someone who has it. I never go forth without somebody who isn't a partner who can, you know, give me the skinny. I wouldn't dare go into a school if I didn't have teachers and administrators by my side. Wouldn't dare, you know. So get
Amie Fabry (40:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kathy (41:10)
the real experts and then together say, you know, we've never crossed sectors before. We're used to living happily in whatever sector we're in. So my other bit of advice is cross sectors and make sure that one of the people in your sectors is like a journalist or a policy person so that they know how to affect real change because ideas are worth not a lot.
if they die on the vine. And they're worth a whole lot if you can create the consortium, you know, to make them happen.
Amie Fabry (41:42)
Mmm, true.
That's great advice. I love that. And we really don't work cross sector really enough, know, such a great learning opportunity really to put people's expertise together and have more profound impact. That's really great advice. Cathy, thank you so much for your time and for being my very first guest on the podcast. It's super exciting.
Kathy (42:02)
my God, totally.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, I am so excited to be your first guest and I want to know if you will join all the play doctors and make this all come to life in Australia.
Amie Fabry (42:23)
Absolutely, I will be there with bells on. It sounds absolutely incredible and I can't wait to talk more and start planning. It's so fabulous. Thank you again for your time. It was such a joy to have you.
Kathy (42:35)
Cheers, bye bye.
