Self-Transformation for Systemic Change: Romana Shaikh
What does it mean to recognise that education is more than an institution, but a state of being? What are some of the shifts of perspective required for positive systemic transformation?
People and their systems are in symbiosis, the relationship between personal and systemic transformations is an inseperable one.
Romana Shaikh is the Chief Program Officer at Kizazi, a global non-profit that seeks to catalyze innovation in the design of school models to enable all children to thrive. She has deep experience working across India, West Africa and Armenia with local teams to transform public education to so education is contextually responsive, restorative of culture and identity & relevant to the needs of young people and their communities.
Romana practices Presence Oriented Psychotherapy with individuals and groups and is currently involved in collaborative and peace building efforts in India. Through her work, Romana is studying the relationship between personal transformation and systemic transformation. She is a faculty member for Comprehensive Sexuality Education, Presence Oriented Psychotherapy.
A Salzburg Global Seminar Fellow and an alumnus of Teach For India. Previously, she has been the Director of Training & Impact for Teach For India & a consultant to TFIx, TFAll and various other NGOs in rural & urban India.
Romana loves tending to plants, practicing yoga and meditation and learning from various wisdom traditions. She enjoys learning about cultures and the diversity of life experiences people have through reading, traveling & being a part of communities.
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This Season is done in partnership with Salzburg Global Seminar. https://www.salzburgglobal.org/
Please check out our partner’s publication advocating for education transformation: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/issue/transformed-the-case-for-education-transformation
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00:00:02:08 - 00:00:35:22
Louka Parry
Hello dear friends, and welcome again to the Learning Future podcast. And this season on Education transformed. Today it's my absolute delight. It's always by the line that I tell you today. It's going to be a fascinating conversation with Romana Shaikh, and she is an incredible educator and a leader in India, based in Bombay, in Mumbai. And she often asked this question, which is what does it take to create deep and meaningful change for all?
00:00:36:13 - 00:01:05:13
Louka Parry
And I have to say, ever since we connected at Salzburg Global Seminar, I was I've been very taken by, I think, the multidimensional understanding that Ramana brings to her work in trying to transform public education in India and look at new school models. But ultimately, with her experiences as a coach, as someone that has worked for Teach for India for a period of time, as well as the director there, leading kind of leadership development.
00:01:06:04 - 00:01:12:18
Louka Parry
Yeah, it's going to be a wonderful conversation. And so Ramana, welcome to the podcast.
00:01:12:22 - 00:02:04:00
Romana Shaikh
Thank you. Thank you, Luca very, very happy to be here. And I'd, I'd like to just take a moment to start by, by, by greeting, greeting you, greeting our listeners. So Salaam alaikum, which is Peace be with you and Namaste in which means the Divine and me sees the divine. And you and I like to start like that as a way of just honoring my culture and the journey it's been for me really, to come back to embracing my culture and also honoring the the people that have come before me, my family, my ancestors, without whom I think without the path that they trod before me, I would not be here with you.
00:02:04:23 - 00:02:08:03
Romana Shaikh
So thanks for having me. And yeah.
00:02:09:05 - 00:02:39:21
Louka Parry
It's it's a wonderful way to suddenly any conversation and, you know, you would know in Australia we often do an acknowledgment of country, which is to acknowledge the ongoing human connection. And I'm recording this on the beautiful gadigal country of the or a nation in eastern Sydney today. And your reflection on the ancestry, I think is so powerful for all of us, you know, and especially when we talk about transformation at any level, especially system or school or organizational transformation, you know, it's this idea of like, where have we come from?
00:02:39:21 - 00:03:04:02
Louka Parry
And one of my favorite sayings actually is that we are our ancestors Wildest dreams. MM It's such a beautiful reflection, right on. Like, Oh wow, that's true. At some point I was just an idea. I was a hope. I was a dream that, you know, my Greek and Welsh ancestors in my case had. It's such a beautiful start.
00:03:04:02 - 00:03:23:06
Louka Parry
So thank you, Ramona. And yeah, I think through that lens. Give us your take right now and not just the work you do, but who you are in the world in terms of like the transformation opportunity that we have at all the different levels from, you know, interpersonal all the way up to perhaps planetary. I mean, big question.
00:03:23:06 - 00:03:30:01
Louka Parry
I know, but yeah, what's your reflection like? What are you exploring right now? What are you learning right now that you think is really pertinent?
00:03:31:12 - 00:04:09:09
Romana Shaikh
Yeah, I think building from the the acknowledgment of ancestry, I think I've been presented this idea of just time a lot. And if we were to extend from your quote to what does it mean for us to be good ancestors? Mm hmm. And could we look at everything we do in the world today from really that much longer span of time, which is not linear, but still, it gives us a bigger window to think of generations to come.
00:04:11:06 - 00:05:04:05
Romana Shaikh
And so I think that's been the frame within which I've been exploring a lot of things and, and one of the things I think within that that I'm sort of trying to find my way back into as just been the my, my embodied sense of my ancestry. And I carry it and I carry my ancestry in me. But what does it mean to to really tune in to that and how can I and my practices in the recent few years around, whether it's meditation or yoga or bowling or dance, they've all been practices that have come from so many ancient wisdom traditions and they're still there.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:21:03
Romana Shaikh
They're available for me to partake in, you know, for me to, to learn from. And and that's sort of been a an entry point I've been exploring to reconnect with that which which has been lost to many of our cultures and definitely for mine.
00:05:21:16 - 00:05:48:14
Louka Parry
Well take a fantastic from take us into like when we think about transformation as a concept or maybe want to think about transformation as a state of being, you know, what is, what's your reflection on that? Because a lot of the work that you do now, as far as I can tell, is is really focused on not improvement paradigm or not tweaking assists.
00:05:48:14 - 00:06:11:16
Louka Parry
It very much is like a complete I wouldn't say in fact I'd say remembering of perhaps you know, the rich tradition of what it means to be human. And this is something we focus on all the time at the learning future, of course, is this human centered future in a, you know, within a life centered design frame and a life giving and how can we move towards abundance and flourishing and thriving.
00:06:11:16 - 00:06:26:07
Louka Parry
So, yeah, What is your perspective and what is what are you finding is is possible in terms of transforming education? Yeah. What's your perspective as a as of as of today.
00:06:28:00 - 00:06:52:23
Romana Shaikh
Thanks for asking that and and I really appreciate how you broadened it from transformation as a lens of being. And I think that's really the the key entry point to stop seeing education as this one institution. But to begin to recognize that what is the role that education needs to play for our world, for our planet to be in?
00:06:52:23 - 00:07:39:12
Romana Shaikh
And from there, if we come to yes, it's a transformation of the state of being we're in. I think it really begins to make us pause because then we have to pause and say, okay, wait, what's the what's the entirety of our of our life as human beings? And then what's the shift? So I talk a lot about how a systemic transformation we think of as the outside work is is really about this this inner work of recognizing how the systems we've grown up in have shaped the choices we make today, have shaped who we are today, and hence have shaped the kind of education that we are.
00:07:39:21 - 00:07:41:23
Romana Shaikh
We're driving today. Yes.
00:07:44:07 - 00:07:46:03
Louka Parry
That's great. Keep going. That's great.
00:07:46:08 - 00:08:18:00
Romana Shaikh
Since I wanted to just link to the three shifts that I think of today in this lens and all of them sort of, I think come from come from really ancient wisdom. I don't think it's new information, but it's stuff we've lost. And I think the first the first one I would say is a shift from this idea of self-improvement to self-discovery.
00:08:18:00 - 00:08:26:10
Romana Shaikh
That would be a shift from from separation and individuation to oneness and unity.
00:08:28:18 - 00:08:41:06
Romana Shaikh
And the third idea is around a shift from being served by the planet to being in service of the planet.
00:08:41:06 - 00:09:16:17
Louka Parry
Wow. Fantastic. Yeah, that's I mean, all three of those, I think, really resonate with me clearly. And also I think some of the some of the new narratives that I'm noticing, you know, the UNESCO's Future of Education and Social Contract report, for example, a seminal generational report that frames these things about rather than us extracting from the earth, realizing we are nature and therefore must interact in service of of thriving.
00:09:18:05 - 00:09:39:12
Louka Parry
How do you what are some examples you would say in terms of looking at education today of that shift that taking place or of kind of where we find ourselves now in 2023 in this moment post kind of post-COVID, Canada, you see us, where do you think we're making progress, I guess is my question.
00:09:41:00 - 00:10:10:13
Romana Shaikh
Yeah, I think we've begun to shift the conversation definitely around asking what is the purpose of education? We're asking about wellbeing and thriving. And that's sort of begun to really come into the narrative. In some places it may show up as social emotional learning, it may show up as increased awareness of mental health. So I think there's there's definitely a shift in narrative.
00:10:11:09 - 00:10:43:15
Romana Shaikh
I think in practice is is probably where there is there's few examples when we look at places. So in some of our schools, what we've been noticing is there's a lot more that's happening, which is more hands on. So whether it's the learning from nature, learning by being in nature, many of us schools, the schools in Armenia that have made time to do to just go back to gardening, the children garden.
00:10:43:15 - 00:11:16:23
Romana Shaikh
And it's such a beautiful way of going back to really connecting in a very concrete way with the Earth, but also watching life grow and as a child to realize, Oh, I can nurture life, I can see how it grows. Another shift we've been seeing in some of the schools in India has been and in Sierra Leone. But how we're bringing community back into school and really trying to shift that relationship that you don't just come to school to get a report card of your child.
00:11:16:23 - 00:11:45:08
Romana Shaikh
But what part of this school is a community again? And so there's celebrations that happen with families in schools. There's of times when family members come in and they run lessons for kids where they can teach the things that they know, art and just wellbeing. So it goes together. So families, teachers, children, having that sort of time together where they can reflect on how it's been.
00:11:45:08 - 00:12:17:11
Romana Shaikh
And I think some of this started during COVID because because you began to see so clearly that children and families needed something different and something different from education. And there was an opportunity there to be able to redefine community itself, to recognize that school is not in that building and community is not in that region, but it's community is beyond those physical walls.
00:12:18:15 - 00:12:29:06
Romana Shaikh
I think these have been shifts that that that we're beginning to see, not just in our schools, but in the narrative and in many other conversations happening and testing.
00:12:30:20 - 00:12:57:08
Louka Parry
There's so many things I want to click in back consider. You know, the idea of experiential learning is kind of one, the idea of the parents being part of part of the learning cycle. I mean, one thing that we often reflect here is the shift from the institution which you've spoken to towards an ecosystem lens. And and the idea that actually we are all elements of this constantly evolving, dynamic human system, and you can always go beyond the human now.
00:12:57:08 - 00:13:22:01
Louka Parry
Right. And this and, you know, you see some really wonderful articulations of this, which is, you know, it's not so much human centered design. What is what we need? We need life centered design, not because that expands the frame once more. There's no point focusing on the user. You know, if the user is living in an environment that's not conducive to their overall thriving and that means optimal learning and mastery as much as it means also social and and emotional health.
00:13:23:04 - 00:13:41:03
Louka Parry
So what are you seeing in your work at GAZI or at And you can give us a bit of a more of a sense of that's one of the roles that you play in the world in terms of which kind of models are which. I don't like the word interventions necessarily. I feel like that's that's a bit industrialized, right?
00:13:41:03 - 00:14:04:20
Louka Parry
It's really what kind of approaches or what possibilities are sticking in terms of shifting the way that learning and teaching is taking place, but also in how kind of becoming is being woven into this. And I think this is where we began with identity, you know, stepping in as who we are and what one of our favorite sayings is.
00:14:04:20 - 00:14:23:23
Louka Parry
It's not what you know, what you do with what you know. It's who you are as you do things with what you know, the deeper level of character. You know, we need a character world. And in the creation economy. Yeah. What's your reflection with that in terms of what you're seeing? That's that's sticking.
00:14:23:23 - 00:14:51:06
Romana Shaikh
And so at Gazi, we work as a as a, as a global intermediary. So in each region we work with, we look for a local leadership. We look for a local NGO that works in in schools, in the public schools. And the idea behind that was to say that the models of schooling we need to be really deeply need to be contextualized.
00:14:52:01 - 00:15:20:13
Romana Shaikh
And so to create them, there isn't a one size fits all. So let's really inquire with local leadership into what's that, what is needed here, what is needed there, and acknowledge that it's different. And so in doing this work now in India, in Sierra Leone, in Armenia, and we've we've also worked with a group of school leaders and entrepreneurs across different countries in Africa.
00:15:21:18 - 00:15:54:11
Romana Shaikh
I would say the there's there's three pieces, and this is something where we're just about beginning to write and we're seeing similar. One is this idea of of connection and really meaningful relationships. So what is that relationship between a teacher and a child? And and it's been in a certain paradigm, it's been in the paradigm of teacher knows, teacher builds, teacher teaches, yes, and student receives.
00:15:55:07 - 00:16:30:07
Romana Shaikh
But what if we began to see students as children, not just as students, but as children? Then could we also see teacher as human? And then can we also see parent not just to parent but as human? So in this broader theme of whole child, we talk a lot about contextual blue child and then whole school. And within this theme of whole child, it's this idea of really connecting to each other as humans.
00:16:30:16 - 00:16:56:05
Romana Shaikh
Yeah. And so that takes, that takes a place and time in the school very differently. We've seen schools prioritize time to just sit and talk with each other, to sit and really be curious about how was your day and what are you learning and and who are you not just how are you going to get better? Who are you?
00:16:56:05 - 00:17:28:24
Romana Shaikh
What are you learning about you? And I'm curious. I'm really interested in knowing that. So that kind of connection where we can truly just see each other. MM Openness. That's an idea that I think families, children, teachers have all found so simple, so intuitive, and yet it's just been like, Oh, I never knew my children like this before or I don't have to control the class anymore.
00:17:28:24 - 00:17:58:16
Romana Shaikh
You know, I can just trust that my, my students, my children will create learning. And so I think it's been a very liberating sort of expansive experience to allow teachers, children and families to just be their whole selves in school the way they show up. I think that's one of my most favorite shifts that that we've seen stick and come into tangible practice, very tangible changes.
00:17:58:16 - 00:18:08:19
Romana Shaikh
And okay, we're going to spend 30 minutes in a school day, 15 minutes at the beginning, 15 minutes at the end in investing in each other.
00:18:09:20 - 00:18:30:01
Louka Parry
Reminder. That's beautiful. How would you how would you respond to someone that says we don't have time? What would you say to a person like that who's well-intentioned, of course, and saying, oh, we like we have to teach so much content and you know, we care about the kids. What would you say to a person like that is thinking in that way?
00:18:30:01 - 00:18:30:12
Louka Parry
I would say.
00:18:32:04 - 00:19:03:21
Romana Shaikh
I think I would genuinely honor and understand that because the way school has been designed for years and decades, we have not given the time. So the very structure of the school and that that's how it becomes systemic has taught us this message that what's more important between relationships and results is academic results. And so it's not enough for me to just tell a teacher or a school principal, Hey, you've got to do this.
00:19:05:07 - 00:19:38:07
Romana Shaikh
We have to recognize that something has to change about the design of the school and what we value. So if we keep measuring just something every time we go to school, we only ask for something. And all of that becomes a learning. It's not shifting the message. The second thing I would say is it's not enough to expect the adults to suddenly live and lead in a way that they haven't experienced themselves.
00:19:39:03 - 00:19:39:21
Louka Parry
Definitely.
00:19:41:13 - 00:20:08:02
Romana Shaikh
So our entry point lies with all of us schools is to create this space for connection with the adults first. Yeah, does that. Each and every head teacher have a space where they are just sitting and saying, okay, how am I feeling today? And you know what's what's, what's going on with me? And my experience has been that when we've done that with teachers, you just feel it.
00:20:08:09 - 00:20:27:05
Romana Shaikh
You recognize, Oh, this is such a big difference. It's making a difference to my life. Yeah. And in fact, experience of feeling valued or feeling seen that once a teacher or any adult in the system experiences, that's what will flow.
00:20:27:20 - 00:20:28:04
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:20:29:06 - 00:20:51:22
Romana Shaikh
They will just do it then. It doesn't even have to be a separate 15. You could integrate it into a history lesson. Point is not the time. The point is the attitude and that experience of just caring for each other. So I would say yeah. And how has that been for you? How does it feel for you as a teacher that you don't really have time to get to know your kids?
00:20:52:08 - 00:21:12:12
Romana Shaikh
Mm I need to make time to really listen to what is that teacher trying to tell me? They're not pushing back, but they're sharing a genuine challenge that, yeah, I want to, but I can't. So that's my opportunity then to lean in and to let me connect with you.
00:21:12:13 - 00:21:56:12
Louka Parry
You know? That's so wonderful, Ramona. If we take that one level up from maybe I like to think one level down from from a systems view to kind of elevate the educators themselves in the students, you know, children as whole, people even above that, what is the system responsibility to help educators do that work more easily? And I think as you're talking about the need to be a direct experience, you know, for example, it's it's pretty difficult to cultivate agency with learners if the educators themselves don't have a sense of agency.
00:21:56:21 - 00:22:18:10
Louka Parry
And and I think this we get this wrong the same with student A focus on student wellbeing misses the point. It's well-being for all within this learning ecosystem, right? Because teachers that aren't well looked after are not well supported to be able to the state of being, even if they're doing the practice. The state of being is such that it's compromised as they do their important work.
00:22:18:16 - 00:22:29:13
Louka Parry
So what would you say is a system responsibility or like a feature of a system that can support that more powerfully?
00:22:29:13 - 00:22:34:08
Romana Shaikh
And you know, by system we mean like people in power?
00:22:34:21 - 00:22:56:24
Louka Parry
Yeah, I would, yeah. So for example, you know, when I think of the system elements, I start to think of teacher training or of numbers of minutes that must be taught or of curriculum expectations and standards and testing and all the things, the kind of features that really try to create coherence, uh, in a good way and in a bad way.
00:22:56:24 - 00:23:10:14
Louka Parry
Control and command, I think, which is the transition we might be seeing in terms of the system change required. Right. But yeah, well, what do you think is, is most needed from a system level view.
00:23:12:02 - 00:23:56:04
Romana Shaikh
Yeah. Um, I think what we've missed out on from a systems level is the system is so far from the lived experience of a child today that they're operating, as you said, in trying to create coherence. But in some ways it's so vague and abstract. What, what is, who is this child? Who is this teacher? So I wonder about what our ways to again bring, make make it possible again, make this system that has become impersonal, something out there, something about the structures.
00:23:56:12 - 00:24:18:04
Romana Shaikh
What does it mean for us to cultivate relationships and whoever that is in the line? Right. So for us, we are local NGO partner interacts with government. What is the conversation they're having with their government and is it only about the numbers or is it also creating space for a child to come in, for a student, for a teacher to come in?
00:24:18:12 - 00:24:54:14
Romana Shaikh
And so making it personal. So there's a relationship then. And the purpose of that, again, would be to re anchor in context. So we're asking and trying to open up this conversation about in your system, what do your children need, what do your teachers need, and acknowledging this this wholeness lens. Yeah, I think the tension over there that I've been experiencing, which is probably the next one for us to explore, is this notion of time.
00:24:55:03 - 00:25:27:10
Romana Shaikh
Yeah, feels like a lot of government systems operate again under a lot of pressure of of having things done in like a one year plan and a three year plan and a five year plan. So I wonder what it would mean for us to begin to again stretch that idea. MM It might be some things you want to do in one year, but if we're trying to fundamentally transform a system, can we also all hold that longer term lens?
00:25:27:10 - 00:25:54:20
Romana Shaikh
So I'm not asking you to, to throw everything out today. Yeah. How do we work towards what you said? More agency for the teacher going from a scripted curriculum to just having to investing in the teachers to understand like, okay, what, what would be a ten year journey for a child. Not the curriculum for ten years whole over ten years.
00:25:54:20 - 00:26:24:10
Romana Shaikh
And that's not going to change in one year perhaps. But the orientation, I think when we ground on context, when we shift the evidence we collect. So from collecting just academic data, can we start collecting evidence on how our students just emotionally regulated in class? Yeah. What are the kind of trauma histories children are bringing in? Yes. How is that showing up when we start broad, Right.
00:26:24:11 - 00:26:46:11
Romana Shaikh
What we look for?
00:26:46:11 - 00:27:10:02
Louka Parry
Great. Welcome back. Romana Hills You were just speaking about really metrics and measures. And I think you know, this idea of moving beyond data into evidencing, which is something that, yeah, I think we are seeing happen because what gets measured gets managed and we value what we measure. And so that's yeah, that reflection is a really powerful one.
00:27:10:02 - 00:27:27:12
Louka Parry
And I like your language even about, you know, we have data over here and people are obsessed by data, but really it's evidencing, which gives us more space to kind of really understand the human experience. Is that right? Is that your impression?
00:27:27:12 - 00:27:59:02
Romana Shaikh
Yeah. And I think, again, it can go down the same route that we are in. So I'm not saying that we simply change the metric and now start chasing new metrics because we're shifting the paradigm of education. So how can we use evidencing? Yeah, to explain and to understand and expand our view of what children need. It's not to say it has five new goals now.
00:28:00:02 - 00:28:32:09
Romana Shaikh
It's not this now you have to improve in language and maths and self-regulation and social emotional skills. That's that's not it. It's saying, can we expand the way we look at and understand the entire human being and what's needed? So it's a way of understanding, context. So I think it's important to do that and to keep the relational personal perspective because again, otherwise data becomes impersonal.
00:28:32:09 - 00:28:50:05
Romana Shaikh
It becomes just something you see on a on a spreadsheet. So I think that's really the end of this time. Do use evidence, but use it like you keep repeating in a human entity. In a way, it serves life to move forward, not just to places the dashboard.
00:28:50:13 - 00:29:19:02
Louka Parry
Yeah, yeah, I, I want you to explore this a bit further for us because I often think about the kind of efficiency paradigm that's baked into education. And again, and I refer to these as legacy mental models or legacy systems, right? That sometimes are palliative. Right? And they're on life support. And we should in some ways transition them to the next stage, you know, like a death and a rebirth, quite literally, you know, and whatever and so on.
00:29:20:07 - 00:29:42:14
Louka Parry
But yeah, I do wonder about even the focus on scaling, you know, like we want to scale this approach. And I, I mean, I agree, we do want to scale innovative practices and pedagogies ways of teaching that make the biggest impact. Yes, we want to do that, but I feel like there's something around the essence we sometimes lose when we have a scale paradigm as opposed to what I might call a spreading paradigm, right?
00:29:42:15 - 00:30:06:24
Louka Parry
Which is you plant the seeds in all these places and of course the environment will cause that practice to be unique because of this question. You keep on coming back to, which is wonderful. It's like what? What is truly needed. It's such a great question. And when you ask, you start with the question, not the answer. I think then you know, the right answer is going to be found because we've we're kind of starting with the question, what's your what's your view on that?
00:30:06:24 - 00:30:12:01
Louka Parry
You know, the efficiency paradigm scaling versus spreading.
00:30:12:01 - 00:30:46:20
Romana Shaikh
I agree with you. I think if we came back to the the stepping into seeing our position here from are we good ancestors, it would shift how we think about results and time frame for one. So and I think efficiency comes from that need to see results in my lifetime and the idea that I can scale something everywhere comes from the idea that, hey, one size fits all.
00:30:46:20 - 00:30:52:15
Romana Shaikh
Both of our are kind of colonial ideas.
00:30:54:06 - 00:30:55:23
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:30:55:23 - 00:31:24:18
Romana Shaikh
Within my own country of India there is so much diversity. I can't the a child in where I live in an urban city of Mumbai their life and my life just by function of a few social indicators where I live, where they live, what religion I come from, what religion another person comes from. It fundamentally changes who I am and hence what I need.
00:31:24:18 - 00:31:48:12
Romana Shaikh
So I think when we think about scaling, it's it's important to ask the question what are we scaling? And in service of all and will it really meet the needs. So instead of scaling, when we think of spreading, as you said, there's a connotation and in spreading that I am reading into, which is again about agency and choice.
00:31:48:17 - 00:32:18:13
Romana Shaikh
Yeah, that's the seeds. And if it works, it will get picked up. MM The other way we could think about it is recognizing that there are systems, the invisible systems that are making continue to act in certain ways. Yes. So an internalized system of do do do do do, which is a particular, if I may say so masculine way of life.
00:32:19:23 - 00:32:23:06
Louka Parry
You may say so yeah.
00:32:23:06 - 00:32:56:16
Romana Shaikh
I have a lot of internalized a patriarchy which will make me act in certain ways, and I will constantly be in distress of needing to prove myself, needing to be Lord, have the answer. And so when I keep coming back to recognizing it as as a system that needs to change, it's a in asking that question of are my ways of operating in the world, are they just a new packaged version of something that I'm trying to break to begin with?
00:32:56:20 - 00:33:26:00
Romana Shaikh
Mhm. So if I've changed from English education denouncing of English and maths, I'm still perpetuating a certain system. I'm expecting children to learn in a second language in a third language and just made that a bar. But I'm just because I'm doing it better and getting helps doesn't mean it's what that child needs.
00:33:26:09 - 00:33:53:03
Louka Parry
Yes. So interesting. Oh my gosh. I want us to go in a slight direction. You just opened something grammatical. We just know we have not got that much time left. But, you know, this idea I've heard the saying before, it's not my own, but it's the idea that an obsession with scale is male and female. Real interesting way of thinking about, you know, the kind of idea of, like, crushing it and like, yeah, I'm a machine, I'm a, you know, animal.
00:33:53:03 - 00:34:10:20
Louka Parry
Like that kind of element, I think, is I believe it is patriarchal, but I don't believe it to be kind of what I try to extricate from that is, is kind of and this is what I'd like you to reflect on because I think you might have an answer. This is like the role of the divine masculine in the divine feminine, if we use that language.
00:34:11:07 - 00:34:41:12
Louka Parry
Right. So we're going a slightly different direction here. But because the idea I think is structure, progress, good obsession with more is kind of a pathology that has taken us to the brink of ecological collapse, right? It's baked into our economic system, late stage capitalist systems, which we're going to have to evolve lest we, you know, not have an environment that can sustain all our life.
00:34:41:17 - 00:34:46:02
Louka Parry
Really. What about you? What's your reflection on that? Big question? I know.
00:34:47:00 - 00:34:49:04
Romana Shaikh
The question. We could do a whole other episode.
00:34:49:05 - 00:34:52:02
Louka Parry
Of should I do that? I think I'm going to go in this direction and see.
00:34:52:02 - 00:34:53:24
Romana Shaikh
But it's a.
00:34:54:11 - 00:35:16:11
Louka Parry
Yeah, because it's not it's not something that we would talk about in a class like in a school system thing. We don't talk about polarities very much, right? But it's something I'm very curious about. When you look at even societal design or the future of work or, you know, even third wage, third wave feminism or the men's rights movements now, or healthy masculinity, which are all spaces I'm trying to understand more and contribute to.
00:35:17:02 - 00:35:24:20
Louka Parry
Yeah, I'd love your vantage point from Mumbai. As someone that I work with quite a lot in, I would say in liberation movements.
00:35:25:23 - 00:36:07:24
Romana Shaikh
MM So in our so growing up, even at home, I often talk about my, my mom and dad as my mom was the, was the religious, God fearing woman. She prayed five times a day. She kept all of us no matter what she really, really was religious, too. The book is religious, too. The book my dad, on the other hand, was very much of the God is my copilot, you know, like he's my friend.
00:36:09:09 - 00:36:43:16
Romana Shaikh
So he was the he God is everywhere. And I don't need to do certain things to be in touch with that. And and so even growing up, there was always that sort of difference between religion and spirituality. And in many of our homes in in India, this idea of the divine masculine, the divine feminine or consciousness of spirituality is very much part of a conversation in many homes.
00:36:43:22 - 00:37:12:19
Romana Shaikh
It may not feel so, but it's in the culture. So I think it's a great point you made that that it's not in schools and that itself is worth questioning. Where did that go? If it's such a big part of culture, whatever religion you're from, there is something about divinity and consciousness. In many cultures which has separated from this modern institution of education.
00:37:12:19 - 00:37:37:24
Romana Shaikh
MM Which in India is not mine. And we inherited it. Yes. And when it came and when it was created, it was created for very specific purposes. Amongst those was the looking down upon almost on, on things that were not quote unquote written scientific. You can see my finger things.
00:37:38:08 - 00:37:42:20
Louka Parry
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course I saw that quite.
00:37:42:20 - 00:38:13:09
Romana Shaikh
And so I think there's there's a lot that we lost in that. And part of that is, as you said, instead of thinking about the Divine masculinity, it became about the men and patriarchy. And that's not what either you or me are talking about. What you and I are saying is all of us as human beings, all of us at this creation, has some masculine energy to it and has a feminine energy to it.
00:38:14:18 - 00:38:43:10
Romana Shaikh
And one of my my teachers, my spiritual teachers was saying that what you just said as well, the place we are in the world has has toppled. This balance is too much of the masculinity which has led to what you've said this. Go, go, go, go, go and order. So if we peel back, masculinity is about order. It's about producing things.
00:38:43:10 - 00:39:15:23
Romana Shaikh
It's about movement forward. It's about in many ways, the femininity is what what allows us to say, Hey, let's go along together, let's not nurture, let's stop, let's pause. And so it's important for this sort of the pausing, the gathering, the nurturing, which is feminine. That's Why the feminine, the the female form is the book giver. But it's not possible to give birth without the masculine energy in it.
00:39:15:23 - 00:39:39:06
Romana Shaikh
Right. Saving biologically it has to be balance mutually as well. It's this balance of energies of pausing, gathering, taking people along. Yes. And then embracing our masculinity to move forward together. And we move. We can move, but it's a dance.
00:39:40:17 - 00:39:41:04
Louka Parry
Yeah.
00:39:41:16 - 00:40:17:08
Romana Shaikh
And so I think we are in a time where it's lovely to hear that there. Are all of these projects around masculinity and around how the masculine can embrace their feminine? Because I think patriarchy has, has done a disservice to a lot of boys and men and people who identify as men as well. Yeah, and it is creating space for this feminine energy which will make us force, which will be uncomfortable for us because even women today have internalized a lot of masculine ways of being.
00:40:18:09 - 00:40:38:17
Romana Shaikh
So it's work that we all need to do in honor of saying we all need to recognize that our planet, Mother Earth, requires us to stop, to just listen a little more. And I don't know this answer to your question. Yes, it was so big. I went as well.
00:40:38:24 - 00:41:14:15
Louka Parry
Did I remind us? Wonderful. And I just feel like we could and should do another conversation about about. That's to say, I'm glad I asked the question and thank you for your answer. I mean, I feel like we have a stripped the kind of metaphysics all so much from our modern world that it's problematic, that it become people become purposeless or meaningless if it's just about, you know, the grind and the hustle as opposed to spiritual questions for which you can be an agnostic, by the way, or even, you know, like you have to have a religious you can say, What's my life for?
00:41:14:15 - 00:41:42:03
Louka Parry
What am acting in service? All those are to me, those are the spiritual questions, because as the saying goes, and I can't remember who said no, we're spiritual beings having a human experience. Yes no, and not human beings having serious experience. So that's a really interesting piece of that, like the self-transcendence that even people like, you know, ever Maslow were talking about later in his career as a humanistic psychologist, How do you transcend the individual to remember the collective?
00:41:42:21 - 00:42:06:13
Louka Parry
Yes. You know that we're in this all together, The really deep First Nations wisdom or system level thinking that I think is being restored and and an integration I think remains both at the individual level with a polarity within all of us, but also at the societal level. So great answer and so much more. I would love to learn from and with you on that.
00:42:06:13 - 00:42:29:20
Louka Parry
So let's have that for next time. I have a final question for you, which is, you know, if we were to fast forward in let's say I like this question, you know, a child is born today while we're having this conversation, you know, and and in 18 years time, they are finishing what used to be called formal education.
00:42:29:20 - 00:42:49:20
Louka Parry
Maybe it's no longer called that in 18 years time. But, you know, I about what kind of experience you would dream that they would have. What kind of future of education are you effectively fighting for or, hoping can be co-created, especially to use your framing if we are to act as good ancestors, what does that look like for you?
00:42:49:20 - 00:42:58:16
Louka Parry
A future of transformed education.
00:42:58:16 - 00:43:51:22
Romana Shaikh
I'm going to pause and check in on that. I would see that a child being being really full of of joy and levity and a child as an adult actually is. At 80, they were able to they would be so sure of knowing what they know and not knowing what they don't know. And I think that's a big difference from education today.
00:43:51:22 - 00:44:18:08
Romana Shaikh
For a child at 18 to say here today, this is this is how I feel, this is how I'm contributing. So today I'm going to be doing this and this is what I'm learning when I'm in this pursuit of figuring out how I can be of service in the world and this strength, I have a sense of able to visualize a future and I can create art out of that.
00:44:18:08 - 00:44:54:15
Romana Shaikh
I can communicate stories. So that's what I'm doing today. And it took I would imagine that we don't ask that child, what are you going to do in ten years? So if he gets there, he'll know it. And so I guess a education transform transform would be one that's not really honors the present, that honors every child as as being whole.
00:44:54:15 - 00:45:35:04
Romana Shaikh
And on this ongoing journey of self-discovery. And in that is youth that really feel connected to that that unity to being connected within, not being able to say, here's here's how I'm feeling right now and how will you see me? I can feel your pain. And I'm curious, can I be there for you? I think those those three would be how they would show up, I think in a light and joyful and really tuned in.
00:45:36:00 - 00:45:36:15
Romana Shaikh
Young But.
00:45:38:22 - 00:46:11:04
Louka Parry
Beautiful. Oh, wow. Thank you very much, Ramona. It's a it's a beautiful. Yeah. To speak that into existence. You know, it's great to end our conversation today. You know, one that's really focused on system presence, self-discovery, spirituality, you know, I think, yeah, some of those really powerful things that make us most human. Yeah. And I certainly feel like quite Zen having spoken to you as well.
00:46:11:10 - 00:46:30:19
Louka Parry
I think your energy is such even the ten second pause, I was like, Wow, that's a yeah, we are moving very fast and very quickly. And so how do we ground and then still contribute optimally? But a beautiful reflection on education transformed from Mumbai. Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation.
00:46:32:04 - 00:46:46:14
Romana Shaikh
Thank you. Thank you. Look, I just want to say thanks to all of the teachers I've had that have made it possible for me to speak what I learned from them. And yeah, thank you for giving me the space.
00:46:46:14 - 00:46:48:18
Louka Parry
Beautiful.