Co-generational Design: Eloïse Haylor & Aliyah Irabor-York
What does it mean to empower younger generations? Does it shift power away from others, or does it empower the whole?
The concept of sharing, building, and renovating our spaces and systems, co-designed intergenerationally. Design flexible goals for more broad outcomes and possibilities though-out this century.
This episode features two guests and contributors to Salzburg Global Seminar, this seasons partner.
Elo·ise loves to connect ideas, people and places. In her work with the charity Big Change, a catalyst for long-term changes to how we support the next generation, she nurtures Global Alliances. In particular, the Big Education Conversation, which has evolved from a campaign in England to get the public talking about the purpose and future of education into a global invitation launched at the UN Transforming Education Summit. With intergenerational collaboration at its core, the initiative is currently being adopted, adapted and co-created by partners across 6 continents. Elo·ise is committed to the craft of holding space for system transformation, from the personal to the global. This ranges from work to raise awareness and build agency around the Sustainable Development Goals, in her previous role building the World's Largest Lesson and presently with Colombian Charity Worn-en, to her practice as a massage therapist and Circles facilitator with Space To Pause. At the moment, she is particularly curious about the power of listening and attunement.
Aliyah lrabor-York is the founder of Pupil Power, a nation wide movement based in the UK which empowers young people to develop their agency in order to reimagine the 21st century's Education system. Since starting her organisation at 16, her work has been awarded and recognised for advising global leaders/organisations on how to embed a genuine culture for youth voice. Currently she serves as the youngest board member for Lyfta Education, as well as an Associate Consultant at Big change. Her expertise include designing, aligning, and implementing collaborative and intergenerational campaigns and programs that transform practice in the Education system. Aliyah is currently studying Education, Policy and International Development at the University of Cambridge.
Transcripts available at www.thelearningfuture.com
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This Season is done in partnership with Salzburg Global Seminar. https://www.salzburgglobal.org/
Please check out our partner’s publication advocating for education transformation: https://www.diplomaticourier.com/issue/transformed-the-case-for-education-transformation
[autogenerated transcription]
00:00:01:22 - 00:00:25:11
Louka
Hi Team. Welcome back to the Learning Future podcast and this wonderful series that we're doing on Education Transformed. Today we have an exciting conversation with two wonderful change makers in the education space. Aliya Irabor-York is the founder of People Power and Nationwide Movement in the United Kingdom, which empowers young people to develop their agency to reimagine the 21st century education system.
00:00:25:23 - 00:00:46:24
Louka
She started this organization at age 16. She's clearly an incredible young person. She's also an associate consultant at Big Change and was the youngest board member for Lift two Education, currently studying at the University of Cambridge, no less. It's wonderful to have you here earlier. And joining her is Eloise Haylor Know this wonderful human being that I've been able to connect with through south by Global Seminar.
00:00:47:08 - 00:01:08:01
Louka
And in her work with the charity Big change. She really tries to nurture global alliances, in particular the big education conversation, which is evolved from a singular campaign in England to now become this global movement that was launched at the UN Transforming Education Summit in New York last year. I was very lucky to connect with the team at that time as well.
00:01:08:10 - 00:01:10:16
Louka
Welcome to both of you. It's wonderful to have you.
00:01:12:24 - 00:01:13:14
Aliyah
Thanks for having.
00:01:13:14 - 00:01:13:21
Eloïse
Us.
00:01:14:13 - 00:01:41:13
Louka
Thanks Louka - and I note that you're both there in Salzburg Global Seminar and doing some really profound learning and of course, Eloise, this is where you and I met for the first time and kind of some of the work around Transforming Education, which is the name of the series in partnership with Southwark Global. So question one. What's something that you're learning at the moment that's really sitting with you as you as you consider the ways that you both contribute and learn, in your case, a leader as well as a younger person.
00:01:43:19 - 00:01:44:12
Eloïse
Because that's.
00:01:46:15 - 00:02:17:15
Aliyah
The first thing I've learned, is that actually learning takes place in different settings. It doesn't just take place in a school building or school institution. I'm at second near University in Cambridge, and so it's often people assume that that's where all my sort of like knowledge building takes place, right? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, actually I'm in Salzburg at some time right now, so anyone from Cambridge University that teaches me is listening or watching.
00:02:17:16 - 00:02:21:09
Aliyah
Please, just not quite. You don't know who I am because actually they wouldn't be.
00:02:23:00 - 00:02:23:10
Eloïse
Digital.
00:02:23:19 - 00:02:24:01
Louka
Skills.
00:02:24:03 - 00:02:25:02
Eloïse
Things like this.
00:02:26:04 - 00:02:52:17
Aliyah
When actually my brain the energy like at the end of the day I'm like this down here because I've got to use my brain and think in ways I just don't on a daily basis at university, which goes to show that when you're around different people, when you're removed from your everyday lives in another country, when you're in an environment that looks completely different to what you're used to when you are just in conversation, like just dialog in itself, you can just learn so much.
00:02:52:23 - 00:03:19:14
Aliyah
And it's interesting how a place like Cambridge doesn't actually support that or at least advocate for that way of learning. They have a very traditional way of learning, which is useful for sure. But I definitely have learned that learning can take place in different shapes and forms and it can be more abstract than weird. Like we've just been taken around ballet and the things that come out of that are so much more rich than me sitting in the library trying to cram information from a.
00:03:19:14 - 00:03:19:20
Eloïse
Book.
00:03:21:10 - 00:03:39:09
Louka
Or an exam. They absolutely, absolutely. A guy has a great start. I mean, the difference between schooling and learning and we think schooling is learning when really learning is everything in life. And then how is that being recognized and applied so good. Louise, what would you add to that beautiful articulation?
00:03:40:13 - 00:04:01:14
Eloïse
Oh, so much. Yeah. I mean, I think especially being here in Salzburg with so many different people with different perspectives, speaking different languages, something I'm really learning is like the power of listening and trying to understand that and deepen that. You never really learn that that's going to be a continual learning process. Like, thank you for the question.
00:04:02:00 - 00:04:29:12
Eloïse
I think it's such a great question. I would ask myself, what would it be like if I started every day or like every meeting with my nine report with that, rather than jumping into to do an action? And I think one of the things that's come up here is like, what does it what does it really mean to listen to what so it's not just the the verbal that can sometimes be a game and certain people dominate in that.
00:04:30:00 - 00:04:56:01
Eloïse
But like, what does it mean to listen to the the non-verbal, to the precognitive even? What does it mean to really attune to each other and processes her creation and also, like the non-human, the birdsong here is phenomenal. It's rare, but I can see where the culture. Yeah, it is. And there are other cultures represented here, but it don't say, Yeah, you're not smart.
00:04:56:01 - 00:04:56:19
Eloïse
I'm, you know.
00:04:56:20 - 00:05:19:17
Louka
I love I love that there's so many places to click. Let's click on I think let's click on listening. I reckon that's because when mean think about transforming education systems in the work that big change has really been leading and articulating as well as part of this group. It's being convened in Salzburg that really does, you know, those three pieces of purpose, power and practice and certainly power.
00:05:19:17 - 00:05:46:02
Louka
The idea of having you know, a young person alongside you always a leader and, you know, in that atelier and that Oh, and nice hug. You know, it really is something about the power of agency, of co-design, of really listening and saying, hey, what's your experience? What are your dreams for the future? And then let's be honest, sometimes us as adults just shutting up a little bit and letting young people speak.
00:05:48:00 - 00:06:22:12
Aliyah
Yeah, but active listening, right? Because I think often we can if you just say everybody needs to listen more, then everyone can do that. But what makes I think there's a differentiation between those that listen to listen and those that listen to learn. And so like the needs of that, I have a big change with the relationship I have with Louise, for instance, is around active listening, whereas in contrast, being in spaces with people where I just know they're listening because they just want me to say what I need to say.
00:06:22:12 - 00:06:45:15
Aliyah
But they have already put the assumptions made in their head and they've already potentially got actions that they're going to see. And what I'm saying is, and actually influencing them in any way. And so I guess listening with no assumptions, listening with no expectations and being open minded and be in allowing yourself to be willing to change and move and shake.
00:06:47:21 - 00:07:15:09
Eloïse
Yeah, yeah. Allowing you to be moved movement something I think on I mean if, if I can do you know Yeah I think it really links to the big education conversation Right. Which is an initiative that began with big change as a campaign in England has now could have grown to a global invitation and that's really an invitation to create a space where different people can ask and discuss what they believe is the purpose of education.
00:07:15:09 - 00:07:41:03
Eloïse
So what is education really for? And doing something that Andre says a lot, which is like in his experience, a lot of the barriers to change are not in the things that you see on the surface, but they're actually in their options and the beliefs, the fears are below the surface and we just don't have enough spaces in society where you can hold that conversation and surface those.
00:07:42:04 - 00:07:48:24
Aliyah
And that's where like inter-generational, this term of intergenerational collaboration comes in and why it's so magical and special because.
00:07:49:23 - 00:07:50:08
Eloïse
I've.
00:07:50:16 - 00:08:18:06
Aliyah
Facilitated and hosted and been a part of loads of the education conversations and it's always with people that I'm not in the same group as me. And so I represent a young person, I'm a student, I'm having conversations with other student is great, but what happens when I'm having conversations with my teachers or my lecturers or even like parents, It's just the sort of like bridge in between the two world because we're all in our own bubble, in our own worlds.
00:08:18:15 - 00:08:20:13
Aliyah
Like what happens when you bridge together is.
00:08:20:13 - 00:08:20:22
Eloïse
Just.
00:08:21:15 - 00:08:23:07
Aliyah
Really magical. I would say, Yeah.
00:08:23:17 - 00:08:43:17
Louka
I really love I really love this idea. I think, Leah, you were speaking to it that in active listening I reflect on the power of generative listening. You know, that the kind of how do you create a container in which something can emerge from it? And it was like, Oh wow, I didn't even notice that would come this, this, the power of dialog and conversation, I think.
00:08:43:17 - 00:09:03:16
Louka
And I feel like many of us, because of perhaps the pace of the world, the pace of schools and education systems, you know, everyone is moving so quickly and some of feels like there's not time to sit down, listen to the birdsong alleyways, you know, and actually just get a real sense of where are we in the world?
00:09:03:16 - 00:09:37:11
Louka
Where are we in kind of the arc of this lesson, this, you know, this school, this nation, this kind of species? You know, and I reflect quite a lot in our work on, you know, the disruptive technologies that are bearing down on us right now, you know, particularly generative. I and, you know, the things that are most human like listening, like I wonder how you would, you know, imagine going into a conversation being holding open the question I am preparing, I'm prepared to be changed by this conversation.
00:09:38:13 - 00:09:57:05
Louka
Isn't that interesting reflection? You know, I mean, as opposed to I've got some things to tell you. I sit down and let me tell you a couple of things. I mean, how do you how do you see kind of the experience changing or what young people are asking for aliya from yourself directly and also, Eloise, from what you're noticing, kind of big change conversations across the globe.
00:09:59:06 - 00:10:04:20
Aliyah
Do you mind like rephrasing that question for me a little bit? Because I've got so much in my head that I want to really make.
00:10:04:20 - 00:10:27:08
Louka
Entirely well, well, I'm keeping a pretty open deliberately, to be honest with you. But I guess he's he's the way I'd put it. You know, if when we talk about education transformation and we talk about it all the time on this podcast, at least, you know, it's a preferred future state. How do you imagine that future state for education, the role of young people, the role of the educator or the teacher?
00:10:27:11 - 00:10:32:01
Louka
You know, in schools and university? What needs to shift, do you think, to get us to that state?
00:10:35:10 - 00:11:27:18
Aliyah
Well, I think it's a perfect question in regards to like where we are right now and what we're doing. So this whole conference in itself is around reflecting on the idea of intergenerational collaboration and intergenerational leaders in different spaces, because often organizations are and people represent different groups. And to me, what I've learned, interestingly enough, is like my vision of education and the vision of transforming education is we've been around like making education more democratic, thinking about who is who is involved in decision making and how we can at least we know it right now in the UK context that we have a hierarchy and students and parents kind of fall at the bottom of
00:11:27:18 - 00:12:12:03
Aliyah
that hierarchy of decision making and power. And so coming to this conference, I had ideas around already what it meant to of who holds the power and who are the gatekeepers right? And what I've learned is that actually it's not about shift in power. We talk about it as if it's really like finite. Yes. And perhaps it's more about sharing power, because at least from my experience, when I've challenged the adults around me to let young people's voices be heard and have a space as well on the table, when that happens, it always still doesn't feel like enough because actually passing a microphone to the young person isn't going to allow them to create any
00:12:12:03 - 00:12:33:03
Aliyah
change. Having me on a panel representing young people isn't going to spark any change, at least immediately. And so I think this even the language around shift in power, is it really shift in power? Adults can maybe be fearful of that potentially because they don't want to give up their voting power that they hold. So it might kind of change in the language.
00:12:33:03 - 00:12:59:22
Aliyah
So like, what does it mean to share power is something reflecting on a little bit more. And so my vision for education is around making change in mindset and kind of shift in people's internal way of being and their behavior to be more comfortable around share in spaces. And yeah, like sharing rather than I've given up because I've realized that you.
00:13:00:16 - 00:13:03:06
Eloïse
Just give up and.
00:13:03:12 - 00:13:25:01
Aliyah
It may be that is like a long term future future vision. But then I think if the world is all just run by young people, then that's even then. Still not inter-generational, right? No, it's doing the opposite. So is around like Sharon. Sharon space together and making sure that it reflects there's an opportunity for everyone to feel comfortable, like the culture has to really be co-designed by everybody.
00:13:25:04 - 00:13:36:13
Aliyah
Like it isn't enough for adults to just say, okay, we're going to let young people into the space because that's still on their condition. So it needs to be like sort of co-design co-created and coauthored.
00:13:36:13 - 00:13:39:16
Louka
I love it. Yeah, beautifully cool.
00:13:40:08 - 00:13:40:16
Eloïse
Yeah.
00:13:41:15 - 00:13:42:24
Louka
I like it. Eloise, what would you add?
00:13:44:04 - 00:14:10:17
Eloïse
Yeah, I mean, it's as interesting when you just said, like adults letting young people into the space. I think something that's come up here and especially some of the young people here, is the adults need to be really clear on why they need young people to be shaping education, what they want to learn from young people. So I think for me, my vision of the future education system is one where everybody is learning and that's really celebrated.
00:14:11:02 - 00:14:40:09
Eloïse
So I think teachers and adults role modeling the vulnerability that comes with learning really breaks down some of the boundaries. And that I think a lot of fear and a feeling of inability to express who you really are. That's when things really comes out. The big education missions is young people want to be heard and seen and able to express their can, a multiplicity of things that they are and that shape shifting all the time.
00:14:40:17 - 00:14:58:23
Eloïse
And it's just so bizarre that we've created the system. But you have to fit into a box like why would we want that when we have multiple crises coming this century and we're going to need so many different skills and so many different people coming together in teams and understanding how to work together and appreciate this skill. And that would be a kind of vision.
00:14:58:23 - 00:15:26:04
Eloïse
And I think, you know, big change. Talk about transformation as being a shift in the goals of the system. So really fundamental and as opposed to reform, which, you know, it was important, but it's it's incremental improvements on the current system that you have but leaving the ultimate goals in place. And I would love a system where we're all contributing to those goals and even acknowledging that they might need to change because of this century.
00:15:26:11 - 00:15:30:03
Eloïse
And we have a system that's flexible and is change ready?
00:15:30:21 - 00:15:54:17
Louka
Yeah, That's so brilliant. I one of my favorite quotes is, I think from a fellow countryman of both of you, which is Dylan William. And he says schools are places young people go to watch adults work very hard. And it's sometimes like I think because the point here is that we all need each other, like we've learned anything about systems is that we're all in this together.
00:15:55:05 - 00:16:23:24
Louka
And like I think your points earlier on, not kind of shifting power, but sharing it. And I wonder even if it's possible to cultivate it, how can we grow power actually in a community through elevating? Yet it's not just letting young people run the show because that's that's the swing of the pendulum too far. It's actually the co agency that comes from young people initiated but held and structured with the professionals around young people so that we can kind of seek fulfillment.
00:16:24:00 - 00:16:47:00
Louka
I think your point around new education goals is so spot on. Louise. I kind of think the efficiency paradigm and in some ways the improvement paradigm or reform paradigm is part of the problem. It's it's a transformation paradigm. Now we still need and Dr. Karen Edge, who I think it might be even with you she spoke about this on the on this podcast that we still need incremental change, but it's in what direction?
00:16:47:16 - 00:16:58:01
Louka
So it's not that we're going to kind of blow everything up and say, okay, now it's a free for all. No, no, there's still going to be incremental change. But those the kind of destination ought to be different, I think.
00:16:58:23 - 00:17:09:08
Aliyah
And the the intention, I would say like, I don't know what worries me or panics me about incremental change is that there's no sense of urgency.
00:17:09:15 - 00:17:10:01
Louka
Yes.
00:17:10:20 - 00:17:40:17
Aliyah
And so I think that's what I like. Again, for me, I know that the change isn't going to happen overnight, but then it needs to be a level of urgency because the impact and the sort of like repercussions of not doing it, the consequences are like life. And then quite literally, and the same way we like, we have we talk about like the climate crisis with so much urgency and like just not as I would say, create fear, but that people will really see the impact.
00:17:40:17 - 00:17:59:22
Aliyah
It's happened. I don't think people see the same impact on education, which is why the big education conversation in itself exists as well, to get everyone involved in the conversation to make education. Everybody's business. Just because you're not in school doesn't mean you can't contribute to transforming education and doesn't mean it's not relevant to you because then and is lifelong.
00:17:59:22 - 00:18:28:21
Aliyah
But yet the school system doesn't share that the idea, because at least how it's portrayed right now is about passing exams and getting good results. And so, yeah, I just I think there needs to be more, more urgency around it, and that's why I'm really intentional about thinking big, boldly and more radically, which can scare people about our intentions for transforming education, but not just reforming it.
00:18:29:05 - 00:18:49:18
Louka
MM Yeah, I love my reflection ultimately on that is the danger is very rarely with to bold. It's always the opposite. It's that we're not bold enough, we're not big, we're not big enough, not dreaming enough. We're thinking, oh, we'll just tweak the thing on the now. It's like we didn't need a transformation. We need in some ways really significant big shifts.
00:18:51:09 - 00:18:54:09
Aliyah
But how can you imagine that if you don't? Yeah, and.
00:18:55:23 - 00:18:56:10
Eloïse
I think a lot.
00:18:56:10 - 00:19:15:21
Aliyah
Of what's coming out is around people. Even when we're like co-design and frameworks and stuff, everyone's just Rabba into the way that they know to do it. We're, we're all here with the intention. So just like think of something so like transformative. But the first thing we go to is writing a policy brief or policy recommendation and we have to snap out of it like, guys, we don't need to write a literature review.
00:19:15:21 - 00:19:35:16
Aliyah
We can do something in a really cool and funky abstract way, and that means it can be accessible. So it's interesting how like play is often seen as we were speaking about this earlier, like adults particularly are like they're so far away from the days where they were playing using crayons that we've been doing drawing activities. And people might say like, What are you really doing?
00:19:35:16 - 00:19:35:21
Eloïse
Like.
00:19:36:03 - 00:19:53:09
Aliyah
Like, is this just a retreat, a fun retreat? But it's like when we're talking about really important things and coming up with really great solutions, but doing them in really different ways. So like, yeah, draw in pictures, dream what that future looks like. And it's hard to do because you have to, I guess, transform yourself first.
00:19:53:13 - 00:19:54:01
Eloïse
Yes.
00:19:55:04 - 00:20:17:23
Aliyah
And I guess something I said earlier and I'll stop looking afterwards is around like it's harder to I guess I have so much urgency because I can see inside more clearly what the issues are. And I'm I'm scared that the older I get and the further away the proximity away from that whole system, the more I'm not going to actually understand it.
00:20:18:12 - 00:20:41:14
Aliyah
And that's, I think, why there's so much urgency. It's like the further you are away, like our politicians now like that are really just old and just it's, it's just you understand the problems of today, also trying to transform things that they experience. And so yeah, they're just they're so detached and so unaware of what the real problems are.
00:20:41:24 - 00:21:09:12
Eloïse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you've made me think of something that one of the conversations we've had is who who might be the barriers to transformation. It's quite a hard question to ask. We prefer to think of what. Yes, we've, I hope. And one of the things that came up was people who lack imagination. Yeah. Oh, and I said, I think it's people who don't feel safe to imagine.
00:21:10:13 - 00:21:11:07
Louka
Beautiful reframe.
00:21:11:13 - 00:21:36:19
Eloïse
Actually, I think that's the part of the problem. And what we've tried to do with the big education conversation is create just enough structure that you feel safe within these boundaries to reimagine. Yeah. And also to think about the the space in which you have that. So, you know, in a school, if you're having that conversation there, there are already preexisting power dynamics inherent in the texts.
00:21:36:20 - 00:21:51:02
Eloïse
Right. But if you have that conversation outside or you have it in a cafe, we feel so much safer. Yeah, different musicians happen and you unlock imagination, which is what's needed to achieve this radical transformation. We're talking about.
00:21:52:02 - 00:22:19:21
Aliyah
Example. Like I was having a conversation yesterday with another young person during our amazing and she was just we were discussing like there were so many youth organizations and youth movements that were born out of it. What's interesting about that, we wasn't in school, all right? We we almost had permission to be creative, to think bigger. But when you're in school and again, now that COVID is sort of like slow down and everyone's back into school, the momentum is to slow down.
00:22:20:06 - 00:22:32:12
Aliyah
Yes. Because again, it's like now back in the system and you've got all these constraints around you and it's it it kind of limits your freedom to think in these ways that we that were is required to transform the system.
00:22:32:21 - 00:22:57:14
Louka
Yeah. I think this this is this piece on an urgency right so so good because I feel like if we really slow down and think about it you know this the system that is a legacy system that we've inherited largely and now globally, but you know, initially kind of a colonial Western paradigm, uh, it, it fails tens of millions of human beings every single day.
00:22:58:06 - 00:23:20:24
Louka
It fails young people, children and adults, because I feel like there's something about the standardization of of you as a productive unit as opposed to you as a kind of irreducibly unique human being that has all these different gifts and skills. And I mean, and that's the system conversation. And then, of course, you see the kind of all the flowers blooming of people that are transforming kind of at their local level.
00:23:20:24 - 00:23:38:04
Louka
And I think to your point earlier, you know, that's that's what can happen when people organize, You know, a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Thank you. Margaret Mead. She's right. It's like the catch cry. Sounds like a little seminar. Like it's so true. When we come together and we discuss the real questions at the heart of things.
00:23:38:17 - 00:24:03:00
Louka
And then, of course, we need to go away and do the inner work on that, because who are we being in allowing the sparks to fall away around us, you know, like that? Who am I being? Am I transforming myself as I try to transform the system? Because the answer that is no. Well, then I'm not listening and I can't listen, actually, because it's about, you know, I've caught in a loop in some way because this wonderful conversation that could keep going.
00:24:03:00 - 00:24:33:10
Louka
I've got two final questions for you. And one is, let's say we're sitting down in let's say ten year time, because I usually say 20, but things are moving so quickly now, let's say it's 2033. Oh, what kind of hope or dream or imagination, considering you've brought that up, what kind of future do you imagine, Elodie, then what kind of future do you imagine a lawyer for young people, for the human being supporting them, the adults.
00:24:36:10 - 00:24:36:24
Louka
What do you think?
00:24:40:24 - 00:24:41:05
Eloïse
That's.
00:24:43:04 - 00:25:04:05
Aliyah
Yeah, I mean, if it feels like a long time away, but I know it will just sit more like I think, than it would be here. I guess. Being in Salzburg for the seminar, I've really learned that there's a lot of like internal.
00:25:04:05 - 00:25:04:16
Eloïse
Work.
00:25:05:00 - 00:25:14:08
Aliyah
And development that we need to do within ourselves before we can even imagine groups of people doing it, communities doing it, the whole society to do it.
00:25:14:16 - 00:25:16:00
Eloïse
Yeah, and I hope.
00:25:18:11 - 00:25:44:14
Aliyah
That in the next ten years, even by 2030 way, we are comfortable having these conversations. It's nothing that's, it's no longer something that's seen as radical or something it's seen as ambitious. And I hope that everyone's on the same page and there's we're no longer spending our time trying to convince people why this work is important. I and now we finally like we built like a great network of allies.
00:25:45:14 - 00:25:57:09
Aliyah
They just yeah, just getting rid of the resistance, I would say, to do this work so we can just get on with it. I think the biggest challenge is just the resistance and having to constantly convince people and challenge people to imagine this sort of stuff.
00:25:58:10 - 00:26:11:23
Louka
It's so good. I think it's the resistance. Convince people in some ways, convince ourselves, yes, it's like the overcoming our own resistance to having to step into the uncertainty, the change in that the imagination space can be deeply scary as well.
00:26:11:23 - 00:26:37:16
Aliyah
It's exciting to convince myself sometimes, which is ironic because I'm like, lead in this work. I'm like, I have to Sometimes I go back and I feel like by speaking to people that can't imagine, I internalize some of it. Sometimes I have to go inside and be like, Remind myself of my why, my purpose of why I'm doing this, why it's important, and sort of refresh, sort of like, yeah, you know, refresh the that and not absorb everybody else's doubt.
00:26:38:03 - 00:26:51:13
Aliyah
Yeah, that's what I'm going to think is, is am I being too ambitious? Is this even possible? Like I can't see the, the impact of what I'm doing and actually no, it's, yeah, it's, it's a step. It's, yeah, it's a, it's a journey.
00:26:53:10 - 00:27:10:15
Eloïse
Which is why communities like this make a difference because you're all you, everyone goes through that. And so you need the cheerleaders to be with you and reflect back to you what you, you know, have forgotten or no feeling listened to in that moment because you've absorbed this other. Yeah.
00:27:10:15 - 00:27:26:00
Aliyah
And having examples of everyday acts of transformation, which is an initiative that we're both working on, which will essentially just like showcase and exemplify all the work in areas and pockets of the world that we just don't see. And people, real people.
00:27:26:04 - 00:27:27:09
Eloïse
Yeah, young people.
00:27:27:21 - 00:27:33:09
Aliyah
Just doing things that seem small but are are contributing to the bigger picture.
00:27:33:17 - 00:27:35:19
Louka
Above a bigger picture.
00:27:35:22 - 00:27:43:20
Eloïse
Transforming big words. Smokestacks. Yes, a lot of small moments, but make up something to do.
00:27:43:23 - 00:28:15:09
Louka
It So it's a beautiful because that's kind of what an any learning community is from. It's like it's big goals, but small steps. And even the act of learning itself, you know, being in the kind of pit in the mass of like, I don't really understand and then coming to some point of growth or development or expansion. I mean, this thing excites me the most about any work in education is kind of the possibility that we can expand the ever, ever greater ways and kind of discover more and more about what might be out to do, you know, in the world to contribute to secure the community level.
00:28:15:23 - 00:28:24:05
Louka
It's such a wonderful, wonderful initiative and look forward to following that one as well. Final question to you both. What's your.
00:28:24:06 - 00:28:24:14
Eloïse
Take?
00:28:26:09 - 00:28:28:18
Louka
All right. Always sure give us know, give us.
00:28:28:18 - 00:28:28:20
Eloïse
A.
00:28:29:19 - 00:28:30:18
Louka
Frame. How would you frame.
00:28:30:18 - 00:28:49:11
Eloïse
This while trying to. Exactly. Well, I guess building what you you said. I think it would be a world where we can talk about the fear and the resistance we feel rather than coming in and all of these processes or intellectualizing it or coming up with other excuses for why something's not happening, when really it's just I feel scared.
00:28:49:15 - 00:28:59:24
Eloïse
Yeah. And then counter to that where there's real respect, a joy as a few and. Yeah, yeah.
00:29:02:05 - 00:29:33:09
Louka
I mean that's such a powerful. Yeah that was great respect for Joy as a few. I mean it really seems to me like what we're talking about here is fulfillment. When I'm talking really even about like traditional success, it's really a life worthy of being lived, you know, an education worth having a conversation with, engaged. I mean, what really matters most, I mean, that's a really kind of philosophical question, but I think it's really at the heart of this work, isn't it?
00:29:33:22 - 00:30:00:08
Louka
It's like, are we wasting our time if we're not really involving every single agent as an agent of change? Speaking of as agents of change, two of them leading, you know, the big education conversation and all the whole bunch of other work. It looks like in the works. What are what would you leave us with, both of you give us?
00:30:00:14 - 00:30:01:19
Aliyah
I think I need for.
00:30:01:23 - 00:30:04:03
Eloïse
To speak to the.
00:30:06:09 - 00:30:07:10
Louka
Take home message for us.
00:30:09:14 - 00:30:33:18
Eloïse
So I come from, you know, my role in big change. We see ourselves as a catalyst. And so we really try and think about being low ego and staying small and working out what our role is and connecting others, bring them together, like enabling things to happen. And I had a really great raise and that was what's the mountain that you're trying to climb?
00:30:34:13 - 00:30:57:00
Eloïse
What would it be like to bring people together around that question? Obviously, we are here in this alpine locations and there's multiple layers to it, but I think it's for me an interesting question What's it like to bring people around shared challenges that that can transit agreement around everything because that's never going to be possible and that's not how you move forward.
00:30:57:00 - 00:31:11:18
Eloïse
So it's actually through through just the doing of the collaboration and the bringing into reality, the future that you're imagining. You enable other people to feel bold enough to follow suit.
00:31:13:03 - 00:31:15:01
Louka
Love a clear.
00:31:17:17 - 00:31:20:19
Aliyah
My takeaway message. So this is like what I want.
00:31:21:06 - 00:31:26:07
Louka
I like I want to know going to leave people with this, you know Yeah. Resonating with them.
00:31:27:03 - 00:31:33:13
Aliyah
Alison's I would just say yeah, just reflecting back on like.
00:31:33:24 - 00:31:35:03
Eloïse
Yourself and.
00:31:36:07 - 00:31:38:20
Aliyah
Thinking about what role you want to consciously play.
00:31:39:17 - 00:31:40:15
Eloïse
And.
00:31:41:15 - 00:31:49:02
Aliyah
Going through a sort of like reflection process, like an internal reflection process and understanding ways.
00:31:51:15 - 00:31:51:23
Louka
Mm hmm.
00:31:55:04 - 00:32:06:06
Aliyah
Yeah. So I'd say, yeah, just reflecting on yourself and ways in which you can just be a better human being and I think internally will just humanize the whole process.
00:32:06:12 - 00:32:06:19
Louka
Yeah.
00:32:08:00 - 00:32:32:01
Aliyah
I think that's we're missing that a lot. Like we been speaking a lot this week about like organize and organizing, like the language that we used and using these big words and times that just doesn't land with normal everyday people. That is what this is an is. And so, yeah, I guess I know I want to like leave everybody on as like just to think about like what role do you want to play.
00:32:33:03 - 00:32:52:14
Aliyah
This is like I said, an urgent move, action. And so we need everybody. So I just, I ask doing this, join this move and join this journey and think about what role you are you're going to play in it in whatever capacity. Right? There's there's roles in whatever capacity.
00:32:52:23 - 00:33:18:05
Louka
It's a beautiful question, I think. What role do you want to play? What might be yours to do as part of Yeah, being a better human, that will talk easily. I thank you so much for jumping in for this podcast conversation during your time there. Salisbury Level Seminar. It's been a real delight to hear your views about the big education conversation dot org, which is the website.
00:33:18:05 - 00:33:31:20
Louka
I think people can go to to find out more and see where these these conversations are happening and hosting one of them themselves. But thank you to both of you for the roles that you play as well as joining us for this conversation.
00:33:33:03 - 00:33:34:06
Eloïse
Thanks so much for having us.
00:33:35:21 - 00:33:37:10
Louka
All right. Thank you.
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