S1E3 - Joanne Hanson: Transforming Pedagogical Practice

In this episode of “Leading the Early Years for the Future,” host Amie Fabry engages in a dynamic conversation with Jo Hanson, an early childhood teacher and Deputy Principal at Comet Bay Primary School in Perth. Jo shares her inspiring journey from an education assistant to a leadership role, emphasizing the transformative power of play-based learning and authentic connections in early childhood education.

Jo discusses the significance of the early years, highlighting the rapid brain development that occurs between ages two and four, and underscores the importance of providing quality, rich experiences during this critical period. She advocates for fostering children’s natural curiosity and supporting their sense of belonging and engagement within the community.

A key focus of the conversation is Jo’s leadership in implementing play-based learning at Comet Bay Primary School. She reflects on the challenges and successes of guiding educators to embrace this approach, noting the importance of psychological safety, authentic relationships, and a shared vision. Jo shares anecdotes illustrating the positive impact of play-based learning on both students and teachers, including increased joy, engagement, and a love for learning.

Find Jo on Insta ( https://www.instagram.com/inspiringlittleleaders/ ) and LinkedIn ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-hanson-088a14190/?originalSubdomain=au ).

Throughout the episode, Jo offers valuable insights into effective leadership in early childhood education, emphasizing authenticity, reflection, and the power of networking. She encourages aspiring leaders to seek support, be open to making mistakes, and remain committed to their core values and vision.

This episode is a must-listen for educators and leaders passionate about early childhood education and looking to inspire meaningful change within their practice.

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Amie Fabry (00:07)

Hi everyone and welcome back to Leading the Early Years for the Future. I'm Amie Fabry, your host, and I'm delighted to be speaking today with Joanne Hanson, who is an early childhood teacher and deputy principal at Comet Bay Primary School in Perth. Thank you so much for the amazing work you do in the early years, Jo, and thank you for joining me.

Jo Hanson (00:27)

You're most welcome. Thank you for having me.

Amie Fabry (00:30)

I'm really looking forward to diving into talking all things early years with you and leadership, of course, and what this has looked like for you, particularly in school settings. But before we do, I'd love to know, do you have a hidden talent? Is there something that lights you up or, you know, something that you really enjoy doing, an interest, a hobby or a hidden talent outside of your amazing work that you do?

Jo Hanson (00:55)

In the interest of early childhood, I think it's just in us. I love doing crafty activities. So I'm one of the people that have a cricket and make all of those things. But yeah, I love it. And I love traveling to different countries and getting to know their history and their culture and things like that. Yeah, that's my go-to.

Amie Fabry (01:05)

One minute.

That's beautiful. We all need to be creative, right? And learning so much from other people and other perspectives is just so, so important. I love that so much. So let's talk early years. Now, based on your experience and your expertise, why do you think the early years is such an important period of life?

Jo Hanson (01:17)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I just I have a real connection with the early years because of the significant importance that it has. So we don't have them for a long time in that space that we call early years. And we know that when kids are born, they're born ready to learn and thrive. And I think it's our responsibility to make sure that we're providing all of those opportunities so that they can do that. The rapid

brain development that

happens for a child, happens between really between two and four. And when you consider that child comes into kindergarten at the ages of three and four, that's where we really need to be spending that really good quality, rich time with them and promoting all of that beautiful development of oral language and connections and all of those things. And I think that's where it comes from is that I know that if we don't get it right down here, we're not setting them up for the best success when they're older.

we're going to have to put all of those intervention strategies and things in place. Whereas if we get it right in the very limited amount of time that we've got, we've got a better opportunity to provide them with really good experiences as an older child and an adult.

Amie Fabry (02:45)

Absolutely. And for people who are not familiar with the West Australian context, we have three and four year olds who often start in our school system in our kindergarten year. So when, Jo, you're talking about them starting so young, it's non compulsory schooling, of course, but it's quite widely accepted over here that this is the first year of school. And so you're really talking about

Jo Hanson (02:54)

You

in.

Amie Fabry (03:09)

those earliest years as children come in and you know at such a young age I mean we talk about early childhood across the globe as being from birth or even pre-birth up into the age of eight so those early years really extend into the school space and I'm curious to know like if you think about our youngest learners and what they need now but even going into the future for them you know ongoing learning but even beyond their schooling experience.

what kind of comes to mind? what do you see as the greatest opportunities that we have and I guess particularly for that school space to really nurture those youngest learners but to enable them to thrive you know and kind of go beyond the academic performance.

Jo Hanson (03:50)

you

I think as educators, we have that unique experience of being able to make those connections with them and develop that self-love and that love of learning and that lifelong learning. And we can do that by just connecting with them because when they come to us in kindy, you know, I know this.

might be a hot topic for some people, but I feel like they come to us and what they just need is for us to let them connect and let them be and feel like they belong and engage them with their community and what's happening in their world and appreciate their world because they come to us with such diverse contexts. And I think it's really important that if we can connect them authentically,

this young, this is what we're going to see grow beautifully as they get older because you know once they get to eight that that idea of play and all of that changes and you can you can actually see that happen. So such a short amount of time I just feel like if we connect with them authentically and value them and and show them.

that they're worth and the things that they're capable of and approach with curiosity and teach them to be curious and to discover and invent all of those things. I feel like we're really giving them a great opportunity.

Amie Fabry (05:12)

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think, I mean, speaking as an early childhood teacher, and I know this is your experience, probably your experience as well, often we in those early years, we do make space and time to get to know children and their unique interests, as well as their backgrounds and, you know, use that in the in our programs to connect them into meaningful experiences. But it's also about creating space for them to be individual humans in our classroom and

Jo Hanson (05:26)

Thank

Amie Fabry (05:40)

develop that sense of belonging. And I know my experience, know, teaching kindergarten pre-primary and children who would move up into the primary school would come back and say, you know, I really loved being in kindergarten and pre-primary. My daughter's just graduated from year six last night and so many of the students were talking about, you know, the best year was pre-primary. I mean, I really think that there is something quite magical that happens in those early years. And I think it is largely because we

Jo Hanson (06:03)

Mm-hmm.

Amie Fabry (06:08)

as early childhood educators, we do actually make the time to connect with children, you know, like you're talking about and create those environments for them to be whole people and not just learning content. I'd love to dive into more of the work that you do, because I consider you to be one of the unicorns, I think, in our school system. You know, when we think about principals and deputy principals who have such an incredible role in our schools as leaders.

Jo Hanson (06:19)

Mm-hmm.

you

Amie Fabry (06:35)

and shaping so many fundamental decisions that are made, particularly around practice and pedagogy. You are one of the few people, I think, who has that early childhood educator experience, you know, to understand child development, but also to have worked alongside our youngest learners. I'd love to hear more about your journey and the work that you do now as a Deputy Principal.

Jo Hanson (07:00)

Boom.

that's very kind. Thank you, Amy. That's really kind. I have always taught in early childhood and I think a really large content of my knowledge comes from the fact that I've actually covered all roles in the education system. So I started out as an education assistant at a language development school.

And the value that I got from that over that 10 years was incredible. That's where I grew my understanding for the importance of oral language in those early years. And they inspired me to become a teacher. And so I did it quite late because I had my kids early. So then I got into teaching and I was found that I was a really reflective practitioner because I kept looking at what I was doing and thinking, I think I can do better. think I can do better, you know. And then I

Aligned myself with people that thought the same way and viewed through the same lens and held the same value for early childhood education. I think that was a huge help. I did my level three classroom teacher around developing a blended pedagogy with my colleagues at Oakwood Primary School in Meadow Springs. And then that just lit that fire in me. That's where I knew that I actually had a capacity to make change.

in early childhood and I had the capacity to drive it. And so it was one of the hardest decisions that I had to make was leaving the classroom and I was really torn because I absolutely loved teaching. But I absolutely wanted to be able to find a space where I could lead early childhood and make a difference and, you know, open someone else's why because I'd already had mine. And I did that. left.

teaching and I went to a new school and I found a school that had similar visions to me and similar understandings and I think wanted to take that journey and we just kind of finding their feet at the time that I walked in. And it's been an absolute joy. It hasn't been easy. It's tricky business leading because sometimes you have to stand back.

and think about the fact that not everybody does see it the way that you see it and that that's okay. You have to be okay with that. But you need to be authentic in your approach and you need to be able to share that why and the science behind it and the importance of it because when you know better you do better.

And so if you don't understand, you've got nothing to work with. And that's what I found has been my biggest growth at Comet Bay is that I was able to share some inspiration and influence with the teachers here and provide them with that beautiful professional learning around the early years space. And it was an absolute game changer.

Amie Fabry (09:44)

Amazing. Your story is just so inspiring, You know, I love hearing that you've just identified and been courageous really just to take the next step, you know, moving from your role as an education assistant into teaching, even taking on, you know, I'm sure it was challenging, level three, and then again, making the decision to move out of the classroom into a deputy role.

Jo Hanson (09:55)

Thank

Amie Fabry (10:05)

does take a bit of guts, I think, to do something different. And I just love that you've done this because now you're in this amazing school and I have firsthand come to visit and seen the difference that you are making to those educators, really supporting their understanding and their growth in terms of embedding play-based learning and connecting with children. And the transformation is actually quite phenomenal. And I know you probably won't say that.

Jo Hanson (10:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (10:31)

But it really is.

You know, and you mentioned that this journey hasn't been easy. And you mentioned that some people don't see things the way you do. But has there been any other challenges that you faced in this work or even sort of, you know, coming up against people who do see the world differently, which is just a reality, right? We are all our own individuals as human beings and even as professionals with diverse knowledge and experience. How do you navigate some of those challenges?

Jo Hanson (10:36)

Hmm.

You have to be prepared to listen and you have to be prepared to understand and take a step back from where you would normally be.

You have to sit back and reflect with them and allow them to reflect and discover that journey themselves. And they have to want to take that journey. And the way that I helped the educators at Comet Bay do that was by giving them that chance, not just them, but the families. Because whilst we're changing our pedagogy at school, we've got parents that have been at Comet Bay for a really long time and they've had children go through and it looked very different.

And so helping those teachers move forward and giving them the opportunity to investigate and explore and be curious about their own teaching practice, I also had to provide the families with that knowledge. And so by creating small things like professional learning or and some development for our education assistants who had never seen this approach before, it wasn't a thing for them because a lot of the teachers have been here a long time.

And so it was new to them and they couldn't understand that change. And so when you get that resistance, you have to understand they're not doing it because they want to be difficult. They're doing it because they don't understand. And it's not their job to go out and source all the knowledge. It's my job to give them a really comfortable platform to learn that content from and to connect with. And not just once, but many, many times because we don't always get it on the first time.

you know, and we need to congratulate them for the small wins that they make. something as little as, and this might sound ridiculous, but something as little as allowing children to write their own name on name tags or to cut their own work out or to be okay with the fact that when they glue it on,

it's going to be wonky, but that's perfectly fine because that's where they're at. so, you know, getting people to understand that and understand that that's okay, that took a bit of time, but now that's just a norm for our kids. All of the signage and things that we see in our classroom gives the kids a real sense of that belonging and that identity in their class because they create everything.

They create every name tag that's in there. They create their number posters and their alphabet posters and all of the things that they need, all of that environmental print is their print. And so, you know, there's nothing more valuable for a parent to walk in and see that their child has contributed to the environmental print in their classroom.

or for a teacher to stand back and think, wow, at the beginning of the year, Billy couldn't have done that. And look what he's giving me in term three. He's, you know, moved up in his contributions. And so when they see that and they experience that and they feel that that innate joy for something that they've done, that then builds that capacity and it builds that want to go more and that drive to seek out more efficient practices based on agency and based on the child.

And so that's been huge for us.

Amie Fabry (14:09)

Amazing. gosh, there's so much to unpack. I'm wondering if you can just talk me through a little bit more around some of those different perspectives. And you you mentioned that some of the staff and educators, know, perhaps were new to, I guess, honouring children's agency and letting them have a go and do things for themselves, whether it's writing a name or gluing something. And I know bringing in more of a play focus into

Jo Hanson (14:11)

Anyway.

Amie Fabry (14:34)

the curriculum and the program was a big part of what you've been leading at Comet Bay. You mentioned that you were helping the educators to sort of understand a different way of doing things and I guess I'm thinking you know for many of them they would have just thought what are you want about Joe you know like how do you actually get them to be open to a new way of thinking?

Jo Hanson (14:55)

As soon as you mention play to someone that doesn't understand what authentic play looks like in a classroom, that is the most scariest word. Who knew that play could scare the life out of people? But it really does because play to someone that hasn't engaged with that is blocks in a corner or a doll's house. And when you've done all your work, that's your reward. You get to play. And so...

I had to start, I had to peel right back and think, okay, they need to understand what play is, what it looks like, feels like, sounds like. What does that look like in their context? Because from school to school, it looks very different. And if you've never engaged with that and you've never had anything to go with to develop your understanding, that's really raw and it's really scary. And so that's where I started was helping

all of our educators, our teachers and education assistants, our SNES, our specialist teachers is my new target for 2025. But, you know, like helping those people understand that play is actually a really great word because that's how they consolidate their learning and that we still need that explicit teaching. We need to explicitly teach that content and then we allow them to show us what they took from that explicit content through that beautiful

Amie Fabry (15:55)

I

Jo Hanson (16:16)

curriculum rich play experience. And so that's where I started. That was probably the biggest thing. Once we got over that and they knew that it wasn't blocks in a corner, choose your own adventure, free for all. They were really good with that. That kind of went, okay, it actually does have a bit of a purpose. Then when they saw the change that that play gave to a child and gave to them.

Amie Fabry (16:28)

Yep.

Jo Hanson (16:40)

in terms of freeing up their time because they've moved away now from cutting and laminating and gluing and doing all of the prep work, all of that sort of thing, moving away from that gave them all of the spare time to actually enjoy what they do and that's be with the children and be part of their learning and really feel like they've contributed to that child's life. That was the hardest thing was getting them to understand play.

and what that does for a child.

Amie Fabry (17:08)

So you've really gone back to listening and understanding where they're at in their own views around play and actually given them time and space to develop their understanding across the whole group of educators. That's incredible. you know, I love that you talked about giving them time. You know, I think we're often so rushed in education and I think schools in particular feel this pressure.

Jo Hanson (17:27)

Yes.

Amie Fabry (17:32)

you know, we're all on these little mouse wheels just going frantically to actually carve out time to provide those opportunities for conversations and learning and thinking deeply about practice is so valuable. And you mentioned sort of the journey that educators and the teachers were seeing the impact of the change in their practice. What are some of the things that you've, you know, heard from the teachers or what have you noticed has shifted

Jo Hanson (17:36)

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (17:59)

for them as they've actually seen the benefits of this for the children.

Jo Hanson (18:04)

I've got teachers now that came from a very structured environment, you know, because that's what they knew, that's what they knew was best practice at that time, and we've all been, but I've got teachers now that are perfectly okay with some organized chaos in the classroom. And they're really good with organized noise in the classroom. And they understand that the classroom isn't the only environment.

Amie Fabry (18:13)

Yeah

Jo Hanson (18:28)

and that the outdoor area is a really good environment for learning. And once you model the expectation of what that looks like outside, then you're just opening up a whole new world because they know the kids know what they want. And so I think that that was huge for me to know that teachers were OK with that. And I've had teachers say to me, I didn't realize that there was that amount of joy.

in my teaching, I didn't realise that I could actually let that go and engage with that. You know, they know how to have conversations now, they know how to initiate conversation and the importance of it and not just when they're in the classroom environment, but when they're doing outdoor play. You know, when they're doing that, they know now rather than, so if a child is

not using equipment properly, rather than say you're not doing that right, I'm to take that away. It's more of a conversation around, tell me what that looks like, what's happening there. okay, is that why using it that way? I think that, and it's a conversation. And so that was something brand new for them. So I was really excited to see that happen in the outdoor space because there wasn't a lot of it. And now everyone just does it. It's just how it's done.

Amie Fabry (19:38)

Amazing.

So really encouraging them to just give this a go and then allowing them to see the benefits and the impact it's having day to day, you know, as they interact with children and see the difference it's making to those children's engagement and that's so powerful.

Jo Hanson (19:43)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, yes, letting them know it's okay to make mistakes. You know, like

you can't get anything wrong if you just engage.

Amie Fabry (19:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think if you're being reflective, which you talked about before too, you know, and being intentional, it's not, not the free for all which so many people think play is, but actually, if we're really deliberate in how we're designing our environments or how we're, you know, grouping children or how we are providing opportunities for play where, where the children are practicing some of what they're learning, then, you know, there's so much room for

Jo Hanson (20:05)

Really?

Yeah.

Amie Fabry (20:29)

thinking deeply, reflecting, observing what happens. It's not like it's just, well, we just try and we throw some stuff out and see what happens, but yeah.

Jo Hanson (20:37)

Exactly right. In

winter, we had in one of our classrooms, we had a child bring a snail in because that's super exciting. And that classroom ended up with an entire environment of all these different snails that all the different kids had bought in. And they had done research on snails and what do they eat and why do they slide through water and what's the slime that they leave and all of the things. And it was this massive display.

Amie Fabry (20:44)

Yep.

Jo Hanson (21:03)

of snails. They had snail races. They built snail castles. They drew decor for the snail castles. you know, like it was, it was incredible. And that came from a teacher that was quite the rigid, structured classroom who just went, actually, I'm going to give this a go. And I think that I'm just going to put myself out there and see how it goes. Yeah.

Amie Fabry (21:27)

Wow, I can really see, you know, as you talk about this process and the journey for the teachers, why it's so important to have that safe space for teachers and educators to try something different because it is hard, right? Like to let go of a wave of...

Jo Hanson (21:41)

See you then.

Amie Fabry (21:45)

you know, practice and things that you're familiar with, and probably feel really good about doing that you know, you've kind of mastered to let go of some of that and try something really new takes vulnerability, right? Like as educators, we actually have to be brave to try something new. So creating that space for them to, to do that to know there's time and no pressure. And like you said, there's no, mistakes and no failure. It's actually just about what are you learning as you go.

Jo Hanson (21:50)

Yeah.

Yes.

And I think too, Amie that psychological

safety has to be there. You have to build that. If you're leading in anything, but for me leading in the early years, you must provide that psychological safety for those educators so that they know that what they're doing is okay and there's no judgment. We're not here to judge. We're just here to do the best that we can do at the time. Reflect, do better, reflect, do better, but they need to be safe.

Amie Fabry (22:27)

Yeah.

How do you create that psychological safety? What have you done to really build that kind of culture?

Jo Hanson (22:41)

by acknowledging those small achievements and constantly acknowledging them and making sure that I'm present when those achievements are made and being in their environment and looking at how things are working in their environment and telling them and sharing with them that they're amazing and what they're those small little efforts that they've made have had such a significant outcome.

on the children in their class. that, you know, it's just those little constant supports that you give them is what creates.

that beautiful space of them going, yeah, okay, I'm doing all right. I'll just keep going. I'll just keep plugging along. And then they feel brave. And if they want to know more, they want to engage with different things, they'll come and ask you. But if they're not asking you questions, you have to ask yourself why? Why are they not, you know, if something's not going right, why are they not coming to me? Am I not being open enough? Am I not being vulnerable enough? Have I not talked about things that I wasn't successful at? And am I acknowledging my mistakes?

Amie Fabry (23:31)

Yeah.

you

Jo Hanson (23:45)

if I've made mistakes when I'm leading. Because I think, you know, when they see us do it as leaders, they know it's okay because we're modelling it.

Amie Fabry (23:52)

Yeah,

that is so true. I love that you talk about, you know, reflecting yourself as a leader because it's a bit like teaching, you know, we can teach children doesn't mean learn anything, right? So we have to reflect on how effective we are. And it's the same with leadership actually stopping to think about

What role am I playing as a leader in these educators lives? You I love that you're asking yourself the question why they're not coming to me or why aren't they asking questions as opposed to just saying, well, you know, what's wrong with the educators for want of a better word, but actually what can I do better? Yeah. So powerful.

Jo Hanson (24:19)

Okay.

Right? Yeah.

Amie Fabry (24:29)

Obviously some of this, you you've had enormous success and I have seen it and it's an ongoing journey and you mentioned you've got goals for next year, which is great. And you mentioned some of this is hard work. What motivates you to keep going even when it is hard or when you get some face some setbacks or challenges? How do you motivate yourself? What inspires you?

Jo Hanson (24:38)

Mm-hmm.

I have a why that's in a group of four. So I have four grandchildren. Two of those grandchildren are at school and two of those grandchildren are in daycare settings. And so at the very core of what I do, what I do is them four that I want the best possible learning experiences afforded to them because they deserve it. And so when I look at the children,

in my care and the teachers that I lead to look after those children in that space. If I want that for my grandchildren, I most definitely want that for the children in that space. And so it just drives me. And when you see those little successes that the children have.

and the educators have and the joy that it brings the families because, you know, they come back with the feedback that they've never seen their child so happy and they just can't wait to come to school and all of those things. I know that I have to have done something right. You know, I know that I have to have made an impact somewhere because I know my why and I know my course and the school shares my why. So I work with an incredible leadership team that has taken

the play beyond the early years and all the way through to year six. It just looks very different. But it's, you know, we're really going for that immersion. And when I see things like that happen and I think, if the year three, four, five, six teachers are happy to engage with this, something has to have resonated. Something has to have hit home and the kids love it. And when, you know, what more do we want? We want them to come to school and have friends, be loved and be happy.

That's what we want for them. And so when you see that you've contributed to that, it just motivates me. It brings me so much joy.

Amie Fabry (26:38)

That's so brilliant. know, having a really clear purpose and why to drive you. But also I love that you're reflecting on where you have experienced some success and where you are making a difference. Because I think we can have this tendency, to always focus on what we haven't yet done, you know, and where we can keep going and keep improving in our roles as leaders, but also when we look at educators or the people we're working with and practice.

Jo Hanson (26:54)

Yes.

Amie Fabry (27:03)

So I love that you're actually taking notice of the gains that you're making in the school with the educators and you can tell yourself, you know, well I am actually having an impact because that is motivating to keep going and that's so important. what are some of your greatest learnings about leadership through your journey?

Jo Hanson (27:13)

Yes. Yeah.

To be authentic in your approach and in yourself and build relationships, relationships, relationships, relationships, because without that we don't have psychological safety. And when we don't have psychological safety, nobody's giving you buy-in. And if you don't get that buy-in and that want, because they have to want to make those little changes or to engage with what you're offering or, you know, come along for the ride.

Amie Fabry (27:29)

Yes.

Jo Hanson (27:47)

You can't make someone do that. You can inspire them and you can influence them and you can do that by giving them the opportunity to learn more. So yeah, think being really careful in that space.

Amie Fabry (28:02)

So true, so true. So on that note, do you have advice then if people are listening who are leading and they might be facing some of their own challenges, they might be aspiring to be a leader, do you have any advice for them?

Jo Hanson (28:15)

network, reach out, seek out. If you don't know where to start or you don't know how to have those conversations, reach out to the early childhood network because everybody that I've ever sought out from our department and from the wider community has always wanted to help. I think that's what makes me want to help is because I know how important it is. So if you're not sure, ask for help.

Amie Fabry (28:37)

Yes.

Jo Hanson (28:41)

That's how you're going to self-improve. Be authentic in your approach. Understand that not everybody looks through the same lens as you. When you begin, it could change and that it's okay to make mistakes. Be perfectly okay with that because it's going to happen. If you're not okay with it, you're going to be a bit shocked. Yeah, and yeah, just know that it's a journey. doesn't happen overnight. I'm going into my fourth year at Comet Bay.

And so it takes a little bit of time and just be gentle with yourself. Think about, you know, the practice that you've got in front of you and the things that you want to be leading and leading well. Align yourself well.

Amie Fabry (29:18)

That's

What brilliant advice. You know, so many wonderful points that you've made, reflecting on everything from being really authentic, asking for help. And I think, again, we don't normalise that enough, you know, whether it's our children, whether it's our colleagues and educators or whether it's ourselves, I think asking for help.

is something that we probably all could do a little bit better. And you know, networking, we are stronger together, right? Like none of us have all the answers. And I think we do stop thinking of leaders as having all of the answers, but actually, you know, they are someone like yourself who brings people together and creates space, you know, for reflection and conversation and learning. I mean,

I don't have all the answers and I'm sure you don't either. even normalising that I think is really important when we think about leadership. Because I worry sometimes that some of our educators in particular hold themselves back from leadership roles because they don't think they have enough of the answers.

Jo Hanson (30:17)

Yeah,

I've just started a network down in this area. So we've had one meeting and so next year that's exactly what we're looking at is how do we lead? How do we step outside and take that leadership role? What does that look like, feel like, sound like? Particularly for teachers that may be in an environment where, you know, early years don't hold the same vision as other schools.

Amie Fabry (30:42)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more we can build up the confidence and capability of our early childhood educators as leaders, because they are all leaders, know, whether you're leading in the classroom, leading children and families, leading your colleagues, we need more leaders in the early space and hopefully more of them will go on to become deputy principals and school principals as well because imagine!

Jo Hanson (30:50)

May I drink?

Imagine what you could achieve. Yeah.

Amie Fabry (31:06)

Jo, it's been such a delight to chat to you, as it always is I really admire the work that you're doing. It's so inspiring. Thank you for sharing your experience, your story and your wonderful words of wisdom.

Jo Hanson (31:18)

You are most welcome. I'm very grateful for you having me on. Thank you, Amie